Brass bodied brake compensator unit and other Beta brake system queries

[Gromit]

Greetings UK Beta Forum members,

Belated congratulations on your 50th Beta anniversary rally in 2022. I saw some pics in an Auto Italia magazine of the event. It looked like a terrific event and a fitting tribute to the 50th Beta anniversary! I wish I could have been there myself, but Australia is a long way away from UK Beta territory.

I have a few queries re choice of replacement brake parts. It looks as though the 1979 Beta Coupe has fallen victim to insufficiently frequent brake fluid changes and frequency of driving. The brakes are starting to show signs of binding. So I am in the market for replacement parts. I have purchased front and rear caliper seal kits plus two new front caliper main circuit custom made stainless steel pistons from Mark W at Betaboyz UK, on the assumption that the existing pistons will be pitted and need replacing. In theory the old pitted pistons could be machined smooth and built back up to spec with hardened chrome plating but I gather that is very expensive to do. The rear kits Mark supplied also come with a replacement (mild) steel piston.

I mentioned getting new braided stainless steel brake lines to my local mechanic who rolled his eyes and said that all of the ones they come across, (which are usually Chinese made ebay sourced jobs), leak at the union fittings, virtually without fail. I know from reading some threads here that many of you swear by UK or French manufactured Goodridge braided SS brake lines and that these perform flawlessly and do not leak. That said I might just settle for Italian made stock rubber brake hose replacements. I am open to persuasion though...

I will need a new brake compensator unit and the replacement 4 bushes that form part of the activation rod mechanism. Here I went a bit mad and was seduced into buying a brass bodied NOS brake compensator, which was much more expensive than the alloy bodied Italian made aftermarket units you can buy cheaply. The thought was that a brass bodied unit would be less likely to seize over time if the car is used infrequently, (but more frequently than of late which has probably help to precipitate the brake system binding problem!). NOS also means NOS seals though which might need to be replaced before fitting to the car? Do they wear out as quickly as their cheap alloy bodied cousins? Perhaps a newer aftermarket alloy body job with newer seals makes more sense? I now seem to recall my old Fiat factory trained mechanic who used to work on my 1981 HPE decades ago saying not to bother with a brass bodied compensator as they don`t work any better and wear out just as quickly or some such thing. I have not actually paid for the order with the brass compensator yet, so in theory I could negotiate a cancellation of that item and maybe buy something else off him that I might need.

I am also not sure what to do about a replacement master cylinder. I can buy new Italian made aftermarket from the UK for 70-80 GBP from Mark W, (brand unknown...I have not yet asked him), or Ricambio UK (Brembo). Shipping would be much cheaper with Ricambio because they have other things I would like that Mark W does not have in stock and buying it from Mark pushes me into a much higher freight cost category (>5kg) on top of what I have already purchased from him. Digression whinge: Shipping from Europe, UK or USA to Australia is now exorbitantly expensive, made worse by a pathetically devalued Australian dollar.

Or I can get an original NOS Bendix master cylinder unit, (not sure of the price yet which might be the deciding factor), which will probably be a perfect fit but will have those NOS seals again! Will the NOS brake master cylinder need to be pulled apart to check seal condition pre-installation to avoid risking premature leakage when installed? Does this undermine the benefit of a NOS original part in this instance?

Some aftermarket Beta master cylinders do seem to have fitment issues with brake lines not being able to be tightened without careful machining around the outlet ports. That was certainly the experience of a local Beta owner, (who is bonkers about Beta Coupes and owns 5 of them in various states of road and racing spec and road worthiness), whom I met recently. He is a mechanical engineer who worked in a local specialist Italian car workshop in his youth, and does all of his own Beta restoration and performance enhancement work. So I assume that the problem was with the poorly manufactured aftermarket master cylinder and not him.

The local specialist brake reconditioning firm in my home town, (Power Brakes), do a good job but charge like wounded bulls. I will get them to do the caliper overhaul work but have been advised to buy new replacement parts where possible by my local mechanic to avoid being hit with an enormous bill by Power Brakes. Hence the new master cylinder route rather than reconditioning and potentially resleeving. These are their Beta worst case scenario prices, (requiring stainless steel resleeving), FYI. Price is per caliper:

https://www.powerbrakes.com.au/shop/beta/lancia/vehicles%20h-p/page/shop/browse

Anyway, I thought I would post something on here and see what the collective forum wisdom makes of it all.


Andrew

[peteracs]

Hi Andrew

Welcome to the forum, calipers can be a right royal pain, especially if you are not used to doing the work yourself.

On the fronts remember there are two pistons, not just the main and the bleed nipples can be a joy in itself to get out if not released for many years. So if you trust the local guys I would say that their pricing is not too far out of order given the time it can take to strip clean and sort them out. The rears are especially exciting to do with the hand brake assembly which can a be a pain to put back.

On the flexible hoses, I have bought HEL brake hoses for my Spider and have a set ready for my HPE. They are steel braided and the brakes on my Spider work very well.

For the master cylinder I bought new Delphi lm29584, again both for the Spider and the HPE. No problems with it. Personally I would always try for new stock.

On the compensator I went for the normal alloy one which is used on various Fiats as well.

You mention the arm bushes for the compensator, I think Mark has them?

I hear your pain on the shipping, it is painful now.

Hope you can find a decent supplier in Oz.

Peter

[Gromit]

Thanks for the welcome (back) Peter.

Yes Mark has the compensator rod bushes. I can also get NOS nylon ones locally.

I am aware of the second piston in the front caliper mixed circuit behind the main circuit piston. I gather that second piston is also a bit of a bastard to remove, refurbish and reinstate...according to Mark W. I don`t have replacements for them so the old ones will have to do.

Bleed nipples were removed and replaced with the most recent service and brake fluid flush. I had read about other UK Beta owners problems with seized and snapped off nipple bleed screws and thought I should be a bit proactive in that regard after the recent neglect the car has received. I suspect you might have more of a problem over there in the UK owing to the amount of rain you get and accelerated rust rates! Not to mention salt on your roads to combat ice. Our Beta Coupe rarely if ever goes on the road in rain.

I did buy a set of 6 Pro Bolt M8x1.25mm caliper bleed nipple screws from Pro Bolt in Melbourne which I gather are UK made and top spec 316 stainless steel CNC machined with rolled threads. As used by Moto GP bikes no less! No chance of a snapped bleed nipple screw now! Pity about the state of the rest of the braking system...but I am working on that!

Those Delphi master cylinder units are not exactly easy to find, but having the correct part number certainly helps.

This is the real McCoy Bendix Italia factory original Lancia Beta brake master cylinder:

https://www.midwest-bayless.com/p-2892-82293524-82369266-oe-brake-master-cylinder-lancia-beta-all-oe-nos.aspx

"This is a Factory OE brake master cylinder by Bendix Italia for all Lancia Beta Zagato, Coupe, HPE, Sedan, and Wagon.

Exact fit to your car and car's hard lines without adjustment or modification.

Aftermarket units have  fluid outlets are spaced approx 10mm wider, and will require bending of the hard lines prior to fitment."

I am inclined to ditch the brass brake compensator, get an alloy cheapie substitute and track down an original Bendix brake master cylinder if it is not too stupidly expensive. Power Brakes can test it and replace the old seals if need be to make it 100% reliable before fitment. Job done.

[peteracs]

Hi

The second piston can be hard if there is loads of corrosion, but of more than half dozen I have stripped, only one is still in there. I used compressed air to pop them out. They are normally in ok condition as well, just need new seals.

You are correct on the bleed nipples, the combination of ordinary steel in an alloy housing, rain and salt and finally leaving them unopened for many years will result in very stubborn ones. The best way I have found to get them to unscrew on old ones is to use a impact gun set on the lowest setting and then to increase the setting if the lowest does not work. This is much more successful than simple brute force which will tend to snap them off.

Best of luck with sourcing the other parts. On the Delphi m/c I replaced all the hard lines, so no idea if they are different to OE.

Peter

[Gromit]

Good advice Peter re your technique for removing stubborn rusted on bleed nipples. It reminds me of some old plumber`s advice on how to remove stubborn corroded on brass or other metal fittings. The idea was to break loose the rusted or corroded on thread by turning initially in the tightening direction and not the loosening direction to break the frozen seal. Counterintuitive but surprisingly effective apparently. Not sure whether that trick works with seized nipple bleed screws though!

Andrew

[peteracs]

Hi Andrew

Sadly tightening does not seem to work, yes tried that…..

Peter