Water Pump Conundrum

[A Ross]

Last week disaster nearly struck - the alternator pivot bolt lost its locking nut and the bolt worked its way out of the pivot making the auxiliary / fan belt really loose. Whilst fixing that issue I span the water pump by hand (in correct direction of travel) to feel the bearings to see if they are the cause of the bearing noise I hear at idle and I can confirm with reasonable certainty that they are.

So with a new cambelt and tensioner about to be fitted, I have decided to replace the water pump and fan belt too. - Here's the conundrum:

My Beta is a 1600 so the short stroke engine, but I see there are two different water pumps listed for Beta's - the standard replacement part for all engines and the one that seems to be specifically for the VX and the Montecarlo - the only difference as far as I can tell on the part for the VX/Monty has a deeper impeller.

What I would like to know before I order a new water pump is would the deeper impeller'd part fit my 1600 as when reading other posts the shallower impeller on the standard unit although fits, does not work so efficiently enough on the VX / Montecarlo and I wonder if my 1600 would benefit from greater efficiency from this part or whether it simply won't fit at all?

Many thanks


Alex

 

[peteracs]

Hi Alex

If your radiator and pipe work are ok, then I can confirm the standard pump will be sufficient. Others will confirm, but you can fit either is my understanding.

Peter

[A Ross]

Thanks Peter,

I'll order the standard part - when I drove it back, there was no problem with it overheating even in the heavy traffic I encountered.


Alex

[peteracs]

Hi

Make sure you do a good flush of the system both ways and use a goodly amount of antifreeze, not for the weather, but to keep corrosion down.

Peter

[Gromit]

Does anyone have any thoughts or experience on brand choice for the standard replacement Beta water pump (ie non Volumex type) ?

I can buy either Bugatti brand from the UK or Graf locally which is dearer. Both are Italian made and both part of the same parent company (Metalli Group) as I understand it.

My only experience with Bugatti pumps was back in the 1990`s when the one fitted to my 1981 Beta HPE failed prematurely a year or two after fitment. Which is not exactly a statistically reliable measure of quality. I suppose it might not have liked the coolant I was using (stock Castrol IAT green coolant). Nobody in Australia had seen, used, or probably heard of factory recommended Paraflu 11 coolant back then and Fiat had abandoned the Australian market.

My father has fond memories of visiting the Bugatti water pump factory soon after it opened in the early 1980`s. He had seen a Bugatti pump catalogue on the counter of the local Italian car parts shop counter and they suggested he visit the factory when he traveled over to Italy to watch the Mille Miglia reenactment among other things, starting in Brescia. He had a special invite from local Australian motoring journalist Mike Kable, (now deceased sadly), whom he had known for many years to attend the Milie Miglia start as his official photographer, meaning he had full access to all of the preliminary events.

So he did as he was running a hobby parts business from home for Lancia Fulvias and Betas to help himself and other local Beta/Fulvia owners source hard to get parts and do a bit of re-manufacturing. The idea was that he might get the local distribution agency for Bugatti pumps in Australia. Things were going swimmingly and Bugatti were keen to expand their sales distribution. The crunch came when they stipulated that the minimum order quantity would be one full container load of water pumps! He did manage to come home with a suitcase full of water pump "samples" though for Fulvias and Betas, one of which ended up in my HPE.

So there is a sentimental attachment to Bugatti but I`ll take Graf if others think they are more reliable and durable!
Andrew

As a post script, my elderly father recalled to me just this week that the highlight of his whole wonderful Mille Miglia experience was stepping out of the hotel where he was staying in the centre of Brescia, (which was the event HQ), and walking down the steps to a classic historic Ferrari which had once participated in the event and coming across a man standing in front of the magnificent machine silently admiring it. He recognised the man as the great American driver Phil Hill, (whose name was written on the side of the Ferrari in front of them), shook his hand and had a wonderful conversation with him, describing Phil as the most modest, charming and easy to talk to person you could ever wish to meet. My father`s abiding memory of Phil Hill was the strength of his hand shake and the roughness of those powerful, strong "mechanic`s hands". He was definitely a mechanic first and driver second. No wonder he was reputedly Enzo Ferrari`s favourite driver!

[Nigel]

Andrew,

I would obtain locally.
Given your location it could take a while otherwise, plus you may face import taxes.
Also, local gives you easy comeback if there's anything wrong.
I guess you've tried Fiat Australia [ or something similar]?

The box branding is seldom relevant in my experience.

Nigel

[Gromit]

Fiat left the Australian market in 1989 and did not return until 2007 with the sale of the Fiat 500, Punto and Ritmo plus some Ducato commercial vans. Today they are down to just one model of Fiat 500 and a Ducato van. Existing Fiat dealerships only support products introduced since 2007, while older vehicle parts support is non-existent. Even then their stock levels and range are minimal and prices exorbitant. Fiat dealerships in Australia from the 1980`s withered on the vine. Dealership parts stock was sold off. Some old Australian Fiat/Lancia spares dealer stock has been acquired by several enterprising local (interstate) operators, two of whom top up their NOS items with aftermarket replacements from Italy mostly. The two local retail Italian car spare part businesses, (Turin Imports and The Spares Place), in my home town have closed their retail premises and operate from backyard sheds or warehouses. They now deal exclusively in more recent Italian vehicle import spares, mainly Alfa Romeo.

I can get a NOS Italian made Graf pump locally or Bugatti ex UK as part of a larger parts order. Mark W is currently selling an "Optima" brand standard Beta water pump, which I assume is Chinese made though he did not respond to my query re country of manufacture. He can no longer get the standard Graf pumps as they are no longer produced (parts catalogue deletion). I`ll probably get the Graf pump locally as that seller also has the genuine original thermostat which is also hard to find.  None of these items are required for immediate fitment. I am just trying to consolidate orders into larger packages to get the maximum value out of shipment especially from the UK where shipping is priced in weight range categories. May as well fill the package to the maximum weight permitted for a given category of weight range.

Even with the exorbitant shipping cost, it is still often cheaper to buy from overseas and pay the freight and local taxes. That is how greedy and extortionate some of the local resellers tend to be who have hoarded NOS parts. There is one reseller in Melbourne who is notorious for this and who shall remain nameless. They are always the seller of absolute last choice from whom to buy. Fortunately the advent of the internet and access to global sales networks via ebay and the like has severely disrupted their lazy rip-off business model.

My brother is in a much better position re parts for the Fiat 124 Spyder which he inherited. He just gets quotes from the three main parts suppliers of Fiat 124 Spyder gear in the USA and makes up an order. Admittedly the freight from the USA has doubled in recent years and AUD exchange rate collapsed, but parts prices for 124 Spyders are ridiculously cheap compared to Beta prices and there is a thriving parts reproduction and aftermarket parts business to maintain supply. I guess it helps that over 100,000 Fiat 124 Spyders were sold in the USA. Talk about the right car at the right time!

BTW, Mark W still has two Graf brand Volumex/Monte Carlo water pumps available if you need the higher flow rate cooling capacity. I did think about getting one of those but felt they should go to someone with a model which really needs that extra cooling capacity.

https://353652584127257704.weebly.com/store/p127/Water_Pump_Water_pump_for_Volumex.html

[Sandro]

Andrew thanks for sharing your Dads story about meeting Phil Hill
hope you get your water pump sorted,  I replaced mine ( care of Mark W ) about 5 years ago!

All the Best A.

[WestonE]

Hi Andrew,

Given the beautiful hot weather you enjoy in Australia I think I would use the deeper impeller VX/Monte pump for an increased margin of safety. You also should be running a heater bypass T Piece on the number 4 heater cylinder head outlet to deal with the designed in hot spot at Number 4 responsible for so many gasket changes. FL did this themselves on the VX and 130TC if you look closely. On earlier cars with the heater off there is not enough flow at Number 4 end even with the very large coolant metering head gasket cutouts on later gaskets.

There is a full thread on this on here.

I actually designed a Cometic MLS Head gasket for my Volumetrico Supercharged Monte which I run with ARP studs. The failure rate of even the good resin gaskets was just too high. Note these gaskets are not the same as reverse port Delta items and only work for 84mm bore. I do use a T piece heater outlet bypass and the heater still works when I want it.

Eric     

[Gromit]

Eric,

Thanks for the suggestions. Now you have got me thinking about the best choice of water pump again! I assume that there are no fitment issues with the deeper impeller pump version? As the Beta Coupe is effectively a weekend hobby car, I probably would not use it in very hot weather, but I take your point about the extra cooling capacity giving a bit of a cooling safety margin. I have noticed that the cooling fan does seem to have its work cut out in summer if the Beta Coupe is stuck in urban traffic, waiting to escape to the countryside. Things might work a bit better with the newly flushed radiator but the cooling capacity was only just adequate beforehand.

The Coupe was fitted with air con when new by the local dealer which is long since defunct. I think the air con compressors used and fitted by dealerships on Betas were notoriously unreliable. My 1981 Beta HPE, (sold many years ago BTW after 10 years of ownership), which I purchased in 1985 as a trade in from the local Fiat/Lancia dealership, had a seized or otherwise defunct air con compressor and the car was only four years old! They did not seem to last long. A new replacement compressor was a condition of my purchase of the HPE. Anyway the point of this digression is that there is an air con condenser fan as well still fitted in front of the radiator, which my father had wired up to a switch in the centre console so that it could be operated manually to provide some extra cooling airflow to the radiator when the water temp gauge climbed in traffic. So I suppose the cooling system could use a bit of extra capacity.

Re the need for a bypass to be fitted to the hot water rail or heater hoses to improve coolant flow around No. 4 cylinder when the heater is switched off, yes I have read about that design flaw and suggested remedial action on the forum. Fortunately, I think my father inadvertently addressed the problem when he had a faulty heater valve problem many years ago. It was either leaking or seized or both and he could not source a replacement (pre-internet back then and even scarcer these days apparently). So he got his mechanic to cut the heater matrix inlet and outlet hoses in the engine bay and join them together to by-pass the heater matrix entirely. I assume that should solve the problem of the lack of coolant flow around the No 4 cylinder by default if I understand the problem correctly? Not having a functioning heater is probably not a very practical scenario for UK conditions but you can get away with it in the warmer climes of Australia.

By the way, my brother discovered a major leak in the heater system of his Fiat 124 Spyder just recently. The lovely newish fitted carpets were saturated with coolant and had to be removed and cleaned. He has not yet traced the source of the leak but will probably replace the entire system (heater matrix, valve, hard plumbed heater pipework etc) to be sure that it does not leak again. What a nightmare of a job. He can get all of the parts from the USA though.

Andrew

Postscript: Thinking about how well the existing Beta cooling system copes with a standard water pump, I do recall that my father had the head  reconditioned some 20+ years ago and he told me there was quite a bit of corrosion which needed to be removed and welded up. The engine did run a bit hotter as a result when it was reassembled, so that might provide further justification to go with the deeper impeller water pump version.

[peteracs]

Hi

Yes a heater bypass is essentially what the mod is anyway.

Peter

[WestonE]

The deeper impellor water pump fits with no issue in my experience. I have one fitted to my Beta Spider block.

[Gromit]

You have convinced me! I have purchased a Graf Volumex type water pump from Mark W along with some brake caliper service parts and other bits and pieces to make the most of the shipping weight category limit.

Andrew