Engine refurb suggestions?

[unclejam]

Hi all,  My 2000 Spyder engine is working fine but quite "tappety" sounding and I was wondering whether there are any Lancia engine specialists left, since the sad demise of Guy Croft?
Any suggestions gratefully received. 

[WestonE]

You will hate this. But with Haynes Beta Manual in hand and a Fiat Twin Cam cam bucket hold down tool you probably need to change some tappet shims. First check the clearances engine STONE COLD with feeler gauges and record them. Plugs out in first gear bump the engine over to do this. NB a syringe to pull out some cam box oil helps keep the mess down.

You can also run 10w/60 oil for a more peaceful life.

Just be sure it is not number 2 conrod tapping on the Aux Drive shaft lobe because someone did not time the pulley correctly. A screwdriver placed on the engine with the other end to your ear makes a good stethoscope for finding your tapping.

Eric   

[unclejam]

Oh dear, that sounds like a boring afternoon!    Thanks for the advice, I have no idea when the shims would have been checked or changed last - I guess this is one of the myriad of little jobs that need to be done when acquiring a new (old) car!

[mangocrazy]

I suspect the hardest part in re-shimming your valves (assuming it/they need doing of course) will be getting hold of a suitable cam tool. I have a 'pattern' version of the NLA Fiat/Lancia cam tool, but I wouldn't be able to lend it to you until I get back from France in mid-October. I'm still amazed that no-one has stepped into the breach and made a faithful copy of the original. The one I have just about works, but isn't a patch on the real thing.

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

Do you mean this one?

https://www.aecar.co.uk/products/valve-tappet-shim-tool-fiat-lancia-twin-cam-dohc

Peter

[mangocrazy]

That's exactly the one, Peter. Wasn't aware that was available, and hopefully being Italian made it will be a faithful copy of the original.

[WestonTB]

I know of quite a few engines that have gone for 100 thousand miles without shims done, my 1600 included and it is still quiet, totally echoing what Eric has said, go by the Haynes bible and check 100% your Aux drive wheel position which is critical on the 2000 but not so on the 1.6 & 1.3.

Millers full synth 10-60w right up to the full mark on the dipstick and check every time you fill up with fuel... assuming you can find some! (super E5 of course)

I can 'trick' my carb 1.6 to turn over without fuel, watch the orange low pressure oil light go out, give a light prod on the noisy pedal and fire with oil spread about.

As for decent peeps to rebuild a Lampredi, I can only think of Eric

(p.s. Bella the slightly orange coupe has just clicked 200 thou doing daily duties, now have a lot of zero's on the dash... again!!!)

Tim.

[Clifford]

I think Bella keeps going and reciprocating the love you be give her Tim 😊
How do you trick her?

[WestonTB]

Hi Clifford,

Simples, don't touch the accelerator pedal , if she sounds like she may fire, release the key (or hidden starter button in my case) & try and have some control over firing/fuel supply, if you are out and about starting many times I don't think it's an issue, but if the car has been standing I like to churn the engine over first without firing to get the oil chucked around.

A bit like the other thread about modern witchcraft triumph of packaging over content cars, at least we have 'some' control over what our Beta's do!

[Nigel]

Regarding valve clearances, old-school engines with rockers would almost always
get noisier with time due to the gaps widening. Pushrod and rocker surfaces mostly.

On overhead cam engines normally the opposite is found. As time goes on
the gaps get smaller due to valve seat recession, hence a quieter engine. Not necessarily a good thing.
In most cases, adjustment will entail fitting thinner shims.

[Clifford]

Thanks Tim
That makes sense. Because I don't use mine every day and with a manual fuel pump it turns over a few times before starting anyway.
The start button intrigues.
C

[unclejam]

Regarding valve clearances, old-school engines with rockers would almost always
get noisier with time due to the gaps widening. Pushrod and rocker surfaces mostly.

On overhead cam engines normally the opposite is found. As time goes on
the gaps get smaller due to valve seat recession, hence a quieter engine. Not necessarily a good thing.
In most cases, adjustment will entail fitting thinner shims.

Thanks for the info - luckily I have an "old school" mechanic mate who can help with unfamiliar territory like this!

[WestonTB]

Howard at AllItalia knows his way round engines, Omicron I am told are very good & Paul Cutts at DeltaWorks/RetroWorks should be good as so should be Tanc Barrett.

At the end of the day, any competent engine builder should be up to the job. Luckily for us the Beta engines are robust. Manufacturers can't afford to make engines to this quality now, so thankfully the days of Lampredi's being used as boat anchors is long gone!   

[WestonE]

This is now a scary area with far too many general workshop mechanics as have a go engine builders in the mistaken belief that the Fiat Lancia TC is simple and easy. Standard of preparation can be poor and decisions on new parts needed ill judged.
Think of this as 2 projects 1 as parts sourcing the other as precision surgically clean assembly.

Decide what you want in the future. If you will go for serious performance later forged pistons are needed. If 170BHP rev limit 7200 is OK high compression cast will do
Do NOT re-use conrods instead adapt new integrale forged items (Tanc Barratt)
Get a lightened flywheel to the VX/8V Integrale size - Helix do a new steel one and a clutch to match
Want the head gasket to never fail again get a Cometic MLS gasket and ARP studs (delta works) or GC bolts
Brand new flywheel bolts are essential to your safety
Crank prep is often not done properly leading to early failure. Plugs removed all journal cleaned and threaded plugs installed in place of the plugs is needed. Grinding the crank should be avoided for a performance engine
Block Prep needs a high standard of work and the pistons supplied with the block - Stanwoods
Oil Pump inspection and precision overhaul is important and a new drive gear must be found (spline failure)
GC was and probably still (Gloria GC's widow) is the only supplier of gaskets and seals that do not leak later. Cam box base gaskets from eBay and the likes of Spesso are a real issue
You need a baffled sump to have the engine last - Beta Boyz do a kit
Head Prep- Start with a VX Head for the larger ports and get new bronze valve guides a and 3 angle valve seats cut - Stanwoods
Cam Shafts - a 40 80 inlet cam GC 3A type. Exhaust standard Beta 2000. this will give the 170 BHP and arround 160ft lbs with high compression pistons and twin 45s. You might well get 145BHP 150ft lbs with a tweaked standard carb. I did.

John Day's business can probably do a decent assembly job. I do NOT build engines for anyone else but have built multiple high performance TC including my current 300BHP 2000 TC Montecarlo engine.

If you compromise and go cheap and nasty expect the misery you will deserve
Flywheels break
Old used pistons belong in the bin and ALL original bore sizes are to worn for standard size pistons which are size classed anyway leading to epic errors.
Aux DS need cutting cleaning and plugging to remove risk to number 2 conrod.
Conrods break and most long service ones have oval big end leading to low oil pressure and failure risk
Head gasket failure was so common on early TCs it was a service item for many - beware cheap eBay head gaskets! NEVER re-use head bolts

Sorry if this is harsh, but it is better that you know. Get and read GC's first book as a grounding, but it was written when old rods and some pistons still had service life in them.

Enjoy

Eric   
Ground cranks with no plug removal and clean- I have now seen this wreck multiple engines
Basic Head re-furb - no performance gain and smoking from guide / stem seal failure               

[unclejam]

Howard at AllItalia knows his way round engines, Omicron I am told are very good & Paul Cutts at DeltaWorks/RetroWorks should be good as so should be Tanc Barrett.

At the end of the day, any competent engine builder should be up to the job. Luckily for us the Beta engines are robust. Manufacturers can't afford to make engines to this quality now, so thankfully the days of Lampredi's being used as boat anchors is long gone!   

Thanks for the suggestions - most of these are on the other side of the country to me sadly!

[unclejam]

This is now a scary area with far too many general workshop mechanics as have a go engine builders in the mistaken belief that the Fiat Lancia TC is simple and easy. Standard of preparation can be poor and decisions on new parts needed ill judged.
Think of this as 2 projects 1 as parts sourcing the other as precision surgically clean assembly.              

Thanks for the comprehensive advice Eric - much appreciated.  A performance boost would be nice - 130 -145bhp would be enough for my purposes, with more torque for increased driving flexibility. Futureproofing with some important components replaced / uprated is also on my wish list.
The motor is running well currently, (with an apparently genuine mileage of 92k), starts instantly when cold, needs a bit of throttle "squirting" when it's hot though and as I've said before, sounds quite tappety.  There is no smoke from the exhaust and I don't see any oil leaks yet, so any upgrades or restoration work is not immediately urgent.  A Winter project timescale I suspect.

[The_Matrix_Master]

An off the self solution ~ If you are Brave 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185078162272?hash=item2b1784a360:g:LmwAAOSwbYphVC15

[mangocrazy]

As Eric mentioned, Stanwood Engineering in Bawtry (South Yorkshire) are first class and their workmanship and attention to detail are second to none. The late and much lamented Guy Croft used Stanwoods for all manner of tasks and was vocal in his appreciation of them. I would trust them with any engine overhaul work.

[WestonE]

I am going for the bait!

£3,000 for a unit on old pistons and rods. Madness
No new valve guides, No mention of the crank being unplugged, cleaned size checked and polished. New Head Bolts? Astradur pattern head gasket the minimum standard for a VX?
Flywheel Crack Tested and surface ground with new bolts?

What did the bore measure after honing and what were the ring gaps on the new rings? probably far too large so not going to provide decent compression for long
Side gaps of the new rings in the piston grooves within tolerance or way too loose?  
New Oil Pump? Or Pump Striped inspected for rotor and end plate clearance relief spring height?  
New Oil pump drive gear?
Were the valve seats re-cut lapped and vacuum tested or does low compression and a misfire await?
Was the side play in the old valve guides really within tolerance? Very unikely
New Core Plugs or the old one that have been quietly rusting from the inside out?  
Are the cams worn? Were the lobes size checked? NB one of my VX donor engines had a misfire from a worn cam.

So potentially flywheel failure from 2 potential causes think a bomb going off in the bell housing
Piston slap (sort of tappety sound) and low compression
Pistons Rings breaking because a wear ridge remains from the Hone only
Head gasket failure from old stretched bolts that are impossible to make hold even torque. Were the threads in the block cleaned with a tap so the bolts work with the skimmed head?
Old Rods potential failure under load. Were the big ends size checked and checked for round??

Bearing failure from poor oil pump or crud in the crank drillings washing out with the nice fresh oil

In case it is not obvious I am recommending you do not buy this. If you want to access a used engine it is best still in a car. Do a compression tested engine hot throttle wide open and attach a good mechanical oil pressure gauge in place of the electric sender and see what you have. Race tech do a decent one      https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/racetech-oil-pressure-gauge-0-100-psi-p10b  
If you are looking at a re-built unit out of a car key new parts and bills for fundamental jobs are essential e.g re-bore, new guides, flywheel crack test and skim, head skim block deck skim etc. Is there recorded data for bore sizes?

[WestonTB]

Yup, Eric is right, measure ten times... cut once