Early HPE restoration

[Neil-yaj396]

Hi Neil

On the HPE/Coupe/Spyder I cannot see the space available for the motor. Also the main reason is that the HPE will be having a power steering bulkhead, so a manual rack will not fit, hence motor driven is not an option.

Peter

Yes, just remembered, the electric column was fitted to a saloon.....

[WestonE]

Hi Peter

On the plus side the Beta PS rack is physically stronger so less likely to flex under load and stand up better to our pot hole strewn roads.

Eric

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Neil

On the HPE/Coupe/Spyder I cannot see the space available for the motor. Also the main reason is that the HPE will be having a power steering bulkhead, so a manual rack will not fit, hence motor driven is not an option.

Peter

Yeah but no but yeah but . . . I might be wrong but I thought I have seen late cars with manual racks that fit power steering style bulk heads? 1.6 engine very late cars maybe? Lhd only? Did we get late 1.6 car in the UK?
I also saw a LHD Berlina for sale in Spain recently, with what looked like factory PS. And I thought I had the only Berlina with PS (albeit electric) .
Sorry I digress.

Ian

[peteracs]

Hi Ian

You may very well be correct. My comment is pretty much from what has been written before and noting that the mounting for the ZF power steering is different to the TRW manual rack.

Peter

[WestonE]

Hi Ian

I thought all later LHD just got Power Steering and it was just the RHD that was not available until the IE and VX for production cost reasons. The hydraulic PS and manual rack bulkheads are very different. I have converted to hydraulic PS twice now. Once by modifying the OE non PS firewall with lots of drill out spot welds swap over mounts and create different holes and also by directly swapping in an IE Firewall. Neither is simple or cheap if you are paying someone to do it.

Eric   

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Eric,
Occasionally I search through Betas for sale in Italy with the hope of one day having one in my garage in Puglia, southern Italy.  Using search sites such as autoscout24 and Subito.it, I have noticed a lot of late cars that look like VX I.e. but with 1.3 or 1.6 carb engines. These cars do not have visible PS reservoirs or pumps and I believe the manual racks bolt up in the same fashion as the PS cars that we are familiar with. I may be wrong as I’ve not seen one up close, but the picture is I believe the rack they use.

Cheers Ian

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Ian

You may very well be correct. My comment is pretty much from what has been written before and noting that the mounting for the ZF power steering is different to the TRW manual rack.

Peter

Hi Peter,
I think you are doing the best conversion by going hydraulic PS.
Whilst my Berlina feels just right with its electric PS on a coupe 3.5 turns rack, I would prefer the hydraulic option on a coupe/HPE/spider.
My VX with electric PS would be a backward step. The rack ratio and feel is perfect on the hydraulic PS cars imo.
The main advantage of the electric conversion was its relative simplicity. Once it had been fabricated it becomes a bolt in bolt out retrofit with no mods to the chassis.

Cheers
Ian

[peteracs]

Hi Ian

Interesting photo, is that a TRW rack with mounting brackets the same as the ZF power steering rack? Wonder if they ever did a RHD version as well?

Peter

[WestonE]

Hi Ian

I have just learnt something showing I do not know nearly enough about LHD Betas. That really does look like a manual rack that would bolt up to a LHD PS firewall.

Cheers

Eric   

[mangocrazy]

I think you are doing the best conversion by going hydraulic PS.
Whilst my Berlina feels just right with its electric PS on a coupe 3.5 turns rack, I would prefer the hydraulic option on a coupe/HPE/spider.
My VX with electric PS would be a backward step. The rack ratio and feel is perfect on the hydraulic PS cars imo.
The main advantage of the electric conversion was its relative simplicity. Once it had been fabricated it becomes a bolt in bolt out retrofit with no mods to the chassis.

Cheers
Ian

Hi Ian,

Pardon my ignorance, but are there any physical or space drawbacks to fitting electrical PS to a Spider? I assume that the rack ratio on a Spider is not as suitable as that on the Berlina? When I finally get my Spider repatriated to the UK, one of the to do tasks is fitting electric PS (assuming it's a viable approach).

Graham

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Ian

Interesting photo, is that a TRW rack with mounting brackets the same as the ZF power steering rack? Wonder if they ever did a RHD version as well?

Peter

Hi Peter,
I’m not sure which manufacturer made these racks. They do indeed mount like a ZF PS rack. If I had to guess, they probably came about when the last series coupe/HPE were rolling off production lines. I don’t know if it’s unique to LHD cars but it only appears on the lower spec late cars.
Did we get late 1.3 1.6 cars in the UK? Or were all the late UK cars i.e/VX with PS?

Cheers
Ian

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Graham,
I’m not 100% sure if there is space to fit electric PS on a coupe/spider/hpe. But. . . . Simply looking under the dash of my coupe and HPE it looks just as possible as my berlina.
Caveat; I’ve not measured yet. But the berlina was tight down to the last few millimetres.
Honestly, I think it’s doable.
Oh and the rack ratios are pretty much the the same. Only the PS cars are significantly different.

Cheers
Ian

[Neil-yaj396]

Hi Ian

Interesting photo, is that a TRW rack with mounting brackets the same as the ZF power steering rack? Wonder if they ever did a RHD version as well?

Peter

Hi Peter,
I’m not sure which manufacturer made these racks. They do indeed mount like a ZF PS rack. If I had to guess, they probably came about when the last series coupe/HPE were rolling off production lines. I don’t know if it’s unique to LHD cars but it only appears on the lower spec late cars.
Did we get late 1.3 1.6 cars in the UK? Or were all the late UK cars i.e/VX with PS?

Cheers
Ian

The late 1300 & 1600s with the 'Corporate' grille were not made in RHD.

[mangocrazy]

Hi Graham,
I’m not 100% sure if there is space to fit electric PS on a coupe/spider/hpe. But. . . . Simply looking under the dash of my coupe and HPE it looks just as possible as my berlina.
Caveat; I’ve not measured yet. But the berlina was tight down to the last few millimetres.
Honestly, I think it’s doable.
Oh and the rack ratios are pretty much the the same. Only the PS cars are significantly different.

Cheers
Ian

Thanks Ian. Once the car is back in the UK I'll make that one of the first jobs I get on with. In the meantime I'll revisit your thread dealing with the conversion and start acquiring the necessary parts.

Ideally I'd like to make it so that I can revert to standard if I cock it all up in the fabrication. To do this what OE Beta parts will I need to find duplicates of (not including the Prius parts)? I'm guessing a complete Beta coupe/spider steering column and clutch pedal for starters?

Cheers!

Graham

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Graham,
And a spare lower steering shaft with the UJs.
Think that was all

Ian

[mangocrazy]

Thanks Ian.

[peteracs]

Hi All

A bit of electrical ideas now.

First up I was going to convert the HPE to fixed headlights rather than the auto adjusting ones which are standard on the HPE. The main reason was the original setup was completely shot and although I did get offered another, I decided as it 40 years old, not likely to be that long before it met its maker so to speak. However having seen the nifty little motor than Nigel had installed as a rear window opener in his HPE, it got me thinking that one of those with the standard HPE light, add a switch in the cabin and I could have manually adjustable lights as per modern cars. Photo of the motor is below, they cost around £25 each and are suitable for external use apparently. Another for the back burner for when the car comes back.

On a more general idea, I have been watching Retropower YouTube videos since they started and they often replace the standard fuse box/relays with a PDM unit. Given I am retiring from scratch, I think I am going to look to go this route. If anyone has experience of them I would appreciate your comments.

Peter

[peteracs]

Following on from the subject of the headlight adjuster, I bought a double throw double pole momentary switch. This is needed to use the motor as the motor needs +12V between the red and black wires to extend and -12V across them to retract, ie reverse the voltage to go the other way. The only way of doing this with a single switch is to use a double pole switch. I temporarily wired it up to the motor and it works very nicely, just need a car to install it into…..

Peter

[peteracs]

I had mentioned this previously and had the same issue with one of the outer CV joints on the Spider.

There appears to be a CV joint listed for the Beta which physically fits, but when you tighten it, it binds on the bearing retaining ring. Ie the depth of the part which protrudes through the ring is way too short. The ones I bought which were supposed to be correct are FAG ones, see photo below.

On the original CV joints there is a removable metal ‘dust’ cover which fits over the flange which goes though the retaining ring. On the FAG CVs this cover is built into the CV joint itself and it is this which protrudes too far. My solution is to have the flange extended by about 5.5mm to just smaller than the inner part of the retainer ring. I realise this will reduce the overall strength of the CV joint where the metal has been removed so time will tell, but the one on the Spider has Ben trouble free so far.

Peter

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Peter,
I’m not 100% sure but I believe this CV joint problem with the oversize shoulder fouling the retaining ring comes from later cars that use very similar CV joints. By later cars I’m referring to Lancia Thema/Fiat Croma/Alfa 164. I think the dimensions and spline counts are all but identical with the exception of the shoulder that is causing the fouling.
Bit of a nuisance but I guess a brand new joint that needs fettling is better than no supply at all.

Cheers
Ian