Whining noise

[mwredit]

Hello all,

I just recently installed my rebuilt 1800 in my HPE a month ago and got it up and running.  Runs like a top, but is developing a strange whining noise that occurs at idle and goes away over 1,200 rpm.  It comes back again after it drops below 1,200.  My oil pressure seems to be fine, as the oil light goes out immediately.  I havent driven it since I just got it running due to this whining noise and the fact that my oil pressure and temp gauges dont seem to be working at all...but that's another issue.  The noise seems to be coming from the auxiliary shaft area of the engine.  I did replace the oil pump and the oil pump drive gear during the rebuild.  Thoughts on what this may be? The whining has the sound of a bad power steering pump (I dont have power steering currently hooked up, however).

Thanks,
Mike Rivers

[Nigel]

Mike, my initial thought is timing belt tension. Is it too tight?

Have you tried removing the alternator belt?

Hope this helps,
Nigel

[mwredit]

Nigel,

Last week, I removed the alternator belt and same noise.  The timing belt tension is per spec, aka the Guy Croft manual.  That's what's weird about this whole thing, along with no temp or oil gauges, even though the sensors test out ok and the needles peg when you ground them on each gauge.

[hutch6610]

That's what's weird about this whole thing, along with no temp or oil gauges, even though the sensors test out OK and the needles peg when you ground them on each gauge.

Long shot but are you sure you have the wires the right way round? If the sensors test correctly (with a multi-meter?) and the gauges work when earthed you must have the wires on wrong.
Would suggest you do each lead one at a time as not only do you have the temperature sensor in the head but you also have the overheat warning also.
You say the oil light goes out so that's correct but that leaves the oil temperature sensor and the pressure sender they too could be mixed up
Start by swapping them around in the head to begin with and see if the gauge comes to life.
Mixed them up myself, usually when i wrap up the engine wiring loom with new tape.

As to the whining noise is the belt tensioner brand new or is it an old one? Does the noise go away if you dip the clutch pedal?

[mwredit]

I'll try switching the wires tomorrow and see what happens.  I wonder if there's a power disruption in the gauges, due to the fact the oil pressure and coolant temp are not functioning, but the oil light goes out when it fires up.  I'll keep you posted.

As for the tensioner bearing, brand new.  When I press the clutch pedal, the noise persists. When I go around areas of the block with a long screwdriver placed up to my earlobe, the sound is very apparent in the auxiliary shaft area, close to where that gear is. I wonder if it's that new oil pump drive gear?  Maybe it needs more run time to break in?  Should I swap in the original gear and see if there's a change?

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

[WestonE]

I would Swap the original Drive gear as a test measuring both carefully and precisely and the bearing if you can reach it. Was the new Aus DS Bearing size checked against factory tolerances?
It might help to look at GCs procedures for fitting this in his later workshop manual which you can still get from Gloria his widow.

Good luck

Eric

[rossocorsa]

I think what I'd do is set the engine in a position where the fuel pump lobe can't hit the con rod slip off the cam belt and try to turn the aux shaft with a rechargeable drill or similar ...proviso if there is space to reach it! (I've only done this with the engine outside the car). This should hopefully pin point the noise.
you need a drill with plenty of torque as oil pressure will start to build up, it won't turn at a huge speed but should be enough to get an idea of what is going on. On another point is it the correct oil pump, not sure what differences there are but there were a lot of minor variations over the years.

[peteracs]

Hi

You can do it with the engine in the car, you need to remove the inner wing lower cover from memory.

Peter

[mwredit]

I double verified all wiring connections and all are correct.  Perhaps a grounding issue?

As for the aux shaft, I modified it by cutting off the lobe at the end and plugging it per Guy Croft's manual when I rebuilt the engine.

Strange thing is the whining noise only shows up after a few minutes of running.  When it's cold, the whining isn't there.

As far as the replacement pump goes, the numbers matched the one I pulled out.  One thing I might mention, I saw an old Lancia Service Letter a while back in regards to the oil pump.  The problem was a vibration from the pressure relief valve that would make the pump "chatter". It states to drop the pan and remove the oil pump to drill a small hole in the pressure relief chamber.  My original pump had no such modification, so I left well enough alone.  Thoughts?

 I'll take the timing belt off and run up the aux shaft manually and see if I can isolate it further.

Thank you all for your help and advise so far. I'll keep you updated.

[mwredit]

Update.  I investigated further in the whining noise that's been plaguing me.  I had a good friend of mine over the other day.  His sense of hearing is better than mine and is a bloodhound when it comes to mysterious noises.  Well, the source of the noise is actually coming from the front part of the exhaust cam tower right behind the pulley in the area of the #1 cam journal. This cam tower and cam was original to this engine (I replaced the intake tower because it was cracked).  Under inspection when I rebuilt this engine, I saw noting out of the ordinary and I used some 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper to polish the surfaces, like I did on the intake side.  The strange thing is that the exhaust side is lower and you would think it would get more oil, but oil starvation doesn't seem to be the issue, as I see the cam drenched in oil when it's running when I take the cap off for a split second.  Should I just run it or swap in another cam carrier or..?

[WestonE]

Check if the cam wheel is rubbing the cam box (tower). If a gasket that is too thick is used on the 3 stud plate the cam cam wander enough for the cam wheel to rub.

Eric

[mwredit]

Eric,

Checked the exhaust cam pulley for rubbing.  All fine.  Here's where things get weird.  My friend that helped me diagnose the noise was back today and we ran it up again.  The sound appears to be louder within the upper coolant outlet pipe coming out of the head and towards the middle of it!  Also, the heater hose that I have running from the head to the lower coolant pipe near the water pump also resignates with the same noise!  We double checked all over the head while it was running with a long screwdriver up to our earlobes and unable to reproduce the whining noise we heard in the exhaust cam tower, which the whining appears to be traveling.  What the heck is going on?  I'm stumped.

On a lighter note, the temp gauge now works. It was a bad connection withing the 3 wire connector out of the harness.

[mangocrazy]

My apologies if you've already eliminated this, but as the sound causes resonance of the upper and lower metal coolant pipes, is the source of that resonance the water pump? Have you put a long screwdriver to the pump housing itself and listened? Was the water pump renewed/replaced in the rebuild?

[WestonE]

I agree with Grahams comment about the water pump. Particularly if the alternator/ water pump belt is too tight on a worn water pump. 

Eric

[mwredit]

Well, the water pump was kind of new when I got the car.  The previous owner had it changed out with a new one when he got the car up and running.  This was 6 years ago.  I decided to rebuild the engine after I disassembled it 4 years ago, cleaned the pump, inspected it and sealed it in a plastic bag with the bolts.  I reinstalled that pump back on this engine a couple of months ago after I installed the rebuilt engine.  The strange thing is that this sound doesnt show up until it's been running for a few minutes.  One last thing I might add this pump is the type with the plastic impeller, which I hesitated to put back on, but wanted to get it up and running.  I will check this in more detail tomorrow as far as possible noise from this pump.  Thanks.