Replacement Engine project

[peteracs]

Hi Eric

Thanks for clarifying. Sounds like the way to go.

Peter

[peteracs]

Hi All

Long time since I posted on here. I decided to keep the Spider as original with its 1600 and this engine build is still going ahead, but the target is now the HPE. Although the engine build will be delayed, I decided as prices are going up to start buying parts. First up is an order on Jenvey for 2 off DCNF throttle bodies suitable for Bosch injectors. The injectors seem easy enough to come by and not sure which to buy yet. Eric has suggest 330cl EV14, but there are long and short bodies and have to do some mocking up to decide which to go for.

Hope to visit Alan over the coming weeks to collect a VX flywheel and Mark M has indicated he has an IE gearbox as the VX versions are thin on the ground which would have been my preferred option for diff ratio, but I think the IE one will do nicely.

Peter

[WestonE]

This is an area for me to reconsider. New Cam lube just before start up remains a recommendation as does pre spin to prime before start up. However If building an engine that will sit for a long time assembly lube designed for the job is probably a sound idea given the engine will start on running in oil. You would not want to butter the engine in this build lube as you do want the bores to bed to the rings. It should NOT be used on the bores.

Eric 

[peteracs]

Well, Jenvey quote made to order on the dcnf throttle bodies, so expected a month or so wait. no such luck ordered last week, shipped to me today, looking forward to getting them. Had a conversation re the spindle connection and they should be coming with appropriate linkage, will be interested seeing what they send.

Peter

[WestonE]

Hi Peter

An exciting parcel!

[peteracs]

Yep, arrived today, only slight issue is they sent for Pico injectors when I asked for Bosch. Not sure of the difference, but they are sending what I need to allow me to use them when I get around to buying the injectors.

Peter

[WestonE]

Hi Peter

Very nice! Do you have airflow trumpets with the package? You would not want them high, but definitely you want a radius bell mouth input with a roll back on the lip. The need is not as extreme as for 45 DCOE where the original Weber trumpets belong in a museum and you want as wide a trumpet with roll back as you can fit. ITG and Pipercross are examples.

You want Throttle body bore size height above the trumpets to airbox lid as clearance as a rule of thumb. These things are about maximizing torque and throttle response with many hours of rolling road and dyno time invested.

Eric     

[peteracs]

Hi Eric

No trumpets yet. I was hoping to go down the 3D printed route for the air box after I have sorted air cleaners, but the trumpet point is interesting and will influence the design and which filter to go for. Interestingly the throttle bodies are much lower in height than the original carb, so a bit more room for the air box and trumpets than I thought.

Peter

[peteracs]

A few more bits arrived, this time from Vicks. The vernier wheels appear nicely made and are significantly cheaper than the others I have seen, even with the import VAT charged.

I also bought a new belt and freeze plugs.

Peter

[WestonE]

I still love shiny bits! Even better when they are not too expensive.

[peteracs]

Hi

A few more bits purchased, piston ring pliers and compressor and plastigage in anticipation of building the engine which is some way off yet….

Peter

[peteracs]

The other week I picked up a VX flywheel from Alan, thanks for that. I had been looking for a clutch for the engine and based on Graham’s suggestion looked at Lancia Thema and Alfa 164 clutches. I knew I needed a 228mm one to suit the VX flywheel and that I would need to buy a clutch release bearing separately. So after much (too much as it happens) looking I placed an order with Autodoc. The clutch and bearing duly arrived and yes I managed to order the smaller 215mm clutch, idiot! I have to say that Autodoc are remarkably efficient in their returns and on applying and explaining via their online system and returns shipment via Parcelforce came through on email. Very impressed.

I also have had to return the fuel rail mounts to Jenvey as the ones supplied are for the Pico style injectors and I am planning to use Bosch EV14 compact style on Eric’s suggestion. They were also helpful in changing them out without hassle. I am in the process of ordering the injectors which vary in price a fair bit so we’ll worth shopping around as the ones I need are pretty common especially on US cars.

[peteracs]

Hi

Still not ordered the clutch, but did get the correct fuel rail connection for the Bosch EV14 injectors from Jenvey.

Also ordered and received from Mark the sump kit to help oil surge.

Peter

[peteracs]

Hi

I have spent so much time trying to sort out a clutch for this engine. The whole situation is way too confusing.

If I wanted one for the standard engine 1600 or 2l, no problem, but for the VX flywheel you need a 230mm pressure plate and yes there are various options, a lot are not in stock and some cheap options which I steered clear of. The end result was looking ideally for a Valeo combo. I focussed on Alfa 164 and Dedra/Thema compatible ones. The variation in price for the same parts and what appear to be similar parts one can only wonder at. The same part could be at least twice the price from different sellers, so a minefield. I ended up buying a QH kit QKT1467AF which is for a Thema. I am sure someone will advise me if a waste of money, but it fits the flywheel perfectly and is made by Valeo and was £129 for both parts.

[mangocrazy]

Hi Peter,

I understand your frustration, as I experienced similar when trying to source essentially the same parts. If the clutch housing and pressure plate bolt up to the flywheel correctly I'd call it a win. I think the actual VX flywheel diameter is quoted as 228mm, as opposed to the 'standard' Beta's 215mm diameter.

I take it you will be getting the flywheel balanced to your crank? GC did mine, but I'm not sure if Gloria still offers that as a service. I suspect that Stanwood Engineering in Bawtry could do that for you (and I also suspect they may well have done mine).

Graham

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

The plate is 228mm and the metal pressure plate is 230mm which is the same as the VX. There are a number of kits for Fiat/Lancia’s which have this dimension and are from the twin cam era. Interestingly as I think you noted some time ago, some of the Alfa 164s also use the same clutches.

This one fits nicely onto the lugs on the flywheel and the bolt holes align, as well as the plate fitting onto the gearbox input shaft.

My only real doubt on the different clutches is do they vary pressure wise and will this be too heavy for a cable clutch as opposed to a hydraulic one (did the Thema have cable or hydraulic?).

Also as far as the kits are concerned you get a thrust bearing which is useless for the Beta. This of course will vary the kit nos as thrust bearings vary, but the clutch itself may be common.

On the flywheel and other machining/balancing, I have decided to approach Stanwood to do it all as a one stop shop with previous knowledge and good reputation. They are not so far away from me either, as with you.

Peter

[mangocrazy]

Hi Peter,

Ah, OK. I didn't measure the pressure plate so was unaware. The Thema and Alfa 164 share the same floor pan I believe and, being both owned by Fiat, a lot of other parts are common. I wouldn't be overly concerned about clutch pressure - I'm pretty sure that the uprated clutches on sale for Betas would have significantly higher pressures as well as different friction material. Not sure how Thema clutches were actuated. And yes, the release bearing is superfluous for a Beta. I'm sure someone in the Thema consortium could give it a good home...

Stanwood will do a top-notch job. GC was notoriously picky about suppliers and Stanwood handled large amounts of his sub-contracted out work.

Graham

[squiglyzigly]

Hi Peter,
Regarding the Thema/164 etc clutch in the Beta, you shouldn’t notice any difference in the pedal feel.
Although the clutch can handle more weight/power it isn’t any heavier under foot. I don’t know the exact physics of pressure plate operation but I think it’s to do with leverage ratio between the pressure plate and bearing. Because it is bigger in diameter, the length of the fingers that the bearing pushes on can give a slightly different lift ratio.

I use these clutches in my VX coupe and it feels the same as my Berlina with a 215mm clutch.

So no nasty heavy clutch worries lay ahead for you.

Ian

[peteracs]

Hi Ian

Thanks for the info, puts my mind at rest although my main concern was the cable versus hydraulic, where with hydraulic you could get potentially a much greater pressure. It will be some time before I get chance to check it out…

Peter

[peteracs]

Hi

Long time since I did any work on the engine, this was due to having bought an IE Coupe which was reported as smoking when put into storage 20+ years ago. I hoped that the engine would be a good candidate for this build and I have spent a few days over the last week stripping the engine down to its component parts. Not the most enjoyable job, it stinks of old oil. The good news however is that on first measurement the crank appears to have all good journals and the block does appear to be in decent condition, though guess it may need boring. The engine obviously was burning oil give the coating of black on the pistons and valves.

So happy with the result.

I realise I have also not updated this thread with some other purchases I made some time ago.

First up, although not strictly an engine part, is a VX gearbox, which has the all important for me, VX diff ratio to make motorway driving more pleasant.

Second up is an original VX head. This I will have to refurbish as it needs new everything, but was supplied with new guides and valves. My aim is to clean up the ports as per GC, but keep standard VX valves sizes. The inlet on the VX is slightly larger than the standard IE/2l one.

Peter