My HPE....now a rolling recommission

[Nigel]

Hello all,

After another month or so of final door card trimming and some more paint, I taxed
it again.
Felt great to drive it, so, last weekend I finally fitted the new discs and pads, and new hoses, bled it through
and went for a 50 mile round trip.

Alas, during the latter part of the trip, the clutch started to slip in 3rd gear when booted.
I always knew the clutch felt a bit weird, but I was prepared to live with it if it worked!

Now I'm considering my options!
1.Do the clutch only.
2.Take the gearbox out, and have the bearings changed [it's a little noisy]
3.Drop the whole lump down and do the struts at the same time, and clean/paint the engine bay.

I've still got plenty 'the love' ,and repeating some tasks is normal for me.

Question, will an engine hoist lift the car sufficiently high to drag the whole unit out, or would I really
need a frame/block and tackle?

Nigel

[Neil-yaj396]

There might be some adjustment left in the clutch? When I bought my last ie Coupe it slipped under power in second. Two turns on the butterfly and it was OK for the 18 months that I kept it.

An engine hoist should lift the front of the car bolted to the strut tops.

[WestonE]

Hi Nigel

Take the gearbox out and change the diff bearings only whilst cleaning the casing internally comprehensively. Change the clutch including release bearing and nylon arm bearing. Change the crank rear oil seal and the gearbox output oil seal as the most likely cause of a dead clutch and likely to kill your new one. The diff bearings are cheap and the first thing to start making a noise in use.

My view only.

Eric

[Nigel]

Neil,
I checked earlier, and found I have 4 to 5 mm play between cable and arm, so nothing to gain there.
Thanks for the hoist advice.

Eric,
Indeed, and perhaps a full set of bearings is the way to go.
I read somewhere here about gearbox sockets/tools for hire. Is that still a thing?

Thanks both
Nigel

[WestonE]

Hi Nigel

LMC hire Tools, but is the noise chatter at idle (bearings on the shafts) or whine and slop whilst driving (diff) bearings. Gearbox builds are serious business requiring extremely clean conditions and the circlips will drive you mad without the right pliers.

Eric 

[squiglyzigly]

Not to mention 3 of the six bearings are very difficult/expensive to find. Also Synchro hubs and sleeves are almost non existent now.
I’m currently doing my 2.0 i.e. gearbox and have been searching for parts for around 4 months now.
The few remaining nos parts available are usually in Italy (no surprise there) and unfortunately some traders are now refusing to send to the UK due to Brexit complications.

I think I’ve found most of the parts I need now but my pocket is around £700 lighter and I’m still waiting to see if the few remaining parts will make it into our little island.

 

[mangocrazy]

Yes, when Day and White overhauled my gearbox in early 2019 (mercifully pre-Brexit) they had to source those expensive bearings from Italy. They have A Man they use down there who seems to be able to lay his hands on most stuff. But at a price...

I used them to source the gearbox lock ring/nut that I needed to get the removal tool fabricated and a single nut cost me £25.

[Nigel]

As I said, I heard noises last weekend but didn't spend thinking time on
a diagnosis. I'm fairly confident that the syncros are working as they should.
 I'll take it out again tomorrow.

Ian, you've painted a gloomy but fair picture on parts availability. I'm assuming no other
Fiat uses similar bearings judging by your own difficulty in sourcing bits.

Graham, I recall, and was thinking of speaking to them. They know their stuff.

It now seems like luxury that I got all the bearings and gaskets off the TAK shelf
in Johannesburg 30 years ago! Time moves on.

[squiglyzigly]

I think the beta/monte box is fairly unique in its use. Maybe Eric can help me out here but apart from the Beta and a few vans I don’t think it was used anywhere else.

A couple of the bearings are shared with other cars and vans but they’re all pretty much out of production now as far as I know. The differential bearings are easy to source as is the primary input shaft bearing clutch end as they are universal off the shelf items. The outboard bearing on the primary shaft had 2 different designs depending on early or late (i.e. VX) and neither are very easy to source but is shared with several cars I think. Delta integrale 8v, tipo, Alfa 155 etc etc. The early one is rocking horse poo.

Both the bearings on the second shaft are not so easy to source. One of them has the same dimensions as a late Fiat 500 but that bearing has less balls and I didn’t want to go there. I found an equivalent from an Alfa 164 nos bearing that had one more ball so I’m happy with that. The other bearing (pinion end) seems to be available as an updated roller bearing but I forget how I found that. Cross referencing numbers maybe.
And the pair of gaskets are to be confirmed (in the post) this week. I’ve ordered them for a Fiat Ducato/Talbot express/Citroen C25 van. They used the Beta gearbox with modified linkage and are still popular vans in the motorhome community.

I’ve also made contact with a chap that modifies the large nut/sleeve on the top of the gearbox. This is the sleeve that the external gear selector rod connects to the gear linkage. The steel sleeve is prone to wear and besides a possible oil leak it causes play in the gear change as the steel sleeve goes oval. The motorhome boys have these modified by machining out the inside and installing a bronze bush. The sleeve in my i.e. box has worn so I shall indulge in this mod.

Hope this info helps.
Ian

[WestonE]

The Montecarlo consortium through Paul Courtney went to huge effort to find modern equivalent bearings and I think Paul found a full set of available modern bearings eventually with references.

I use the Integrale main cluster base bearing (the largest one) because it has double the number of rollers to take more load. Tanc Barret has them. I think he also has the double roller bearing used on the VX boxes.

I got away with not needing new needle roller bearings for the gear clusters which helps as I have no idea where I would find them. Once again early boxes are different with the gears running directly on the shafts so when they have too much side play they are scrap and possibly the shaft as well.

If you want to build a gearbox now strip the best 3 you can find and cherry pick with careful measurement and new bearings and gaskets as a minimum. The first and second synchro hub is the part you really want and is of course stupidly hard to find now.

There is cross over to Integrale Thema in places.   

NB Gasket thickness matters because if effects end float clearance.

If you are reading this and not yet needing a gearbox build this is all the hints you need to change your gearbox oil preferably hot.

Eric   

[peteracs]

Hi Eric and Ian

Thanks for this, definitely not a faint heart project if you decide to do it.

The list of modern bearings would be useful to have documented here for future ref.

Peter

[mangocrazy]

When Day & White rebuilt my Beta gearbox they gave me the old bearings that had been replaced. I'll dig them out and photograph them and post the pics. I would be interested to know which 'version' they are and part numbers for future reference.

[Nigel]

Eric, Ian and Graham, Thanks for all the input!

Graham, that would be extremely useful info .Looking forward to seeing those numbers.

Driving it today:
There is a noticeable whine when pulling and changes to a quiet growl on over-run.
I can hear the input shaft bearing, and possibly others, running in neutral, it goes silent when the clutch is depressed.

I have more or less decided to live with the current box for now, and just change the knackered clutch.
In the meantime, I will seek a spare gearbox to rebuild.

[mangocrazy]

This thread has actually made me think that it's probably worth changing the diff bearings while all the oily bits are out of the car and on the floor. Is it a particularly difficult job and are any special tools required?

[WestonE]

Hi Graham

Was that not done with the Day & White Gearbox build? Done correctly you would check the side play on the differential planet gears and replace the shims as needed inside the diff housing. This needs spare gearbox parts of the kind I carefully keep for my next re-build. Most of the time the side play on the diff is fine and you use hydraulic pullers to remove the old bearing. If you heat the new inner assembly in the oven 200 degrees C they should drop onto the diff outer although having a press might help. There is a pre-load measuring routine (haynes manual and Lancia Tech Books) for choosing the right bearing pre-load shim.  My experience suggests as long as you do not change the casing or the diff bearing cover plates you will end up using the same preload shim for the diff bearings.

Replace the oil seals and O rings on the diff bearing cover plates. I clean them up and paint them avoiding paint on the machined faces. The oil seals have their size written on the in tiny writing and you can order new ones on one of the online bearing supply sites if your local industrial bearing supplier is a bit reluctant/hopeless.

TMH and others probably have the seals and O rings at a crazy price if you want to go that way.

NB if the diff and pinion are heavily worn the rest of the gearbox will be too. This from a lack of oil changes leaving what amounts to grinding paste working away.     

[Nigel]

Hi Eric,
Does the Monte gearbox share all 6 bearings with the Beta?

And the aforementioned clutch release arm bush?

Regards, Nigel

[WestonE]

Hi Nigel

Yes with the standard gearbox. Some later boxes have needle roller clusters some do not. The Monte has a sintered speedo drive at a different pitch to the Beta, lower first gear (not swappable because the fixed shaft is matched) and different selector assembly.

Early Monte boxes chatter at idle just like early Beta boxes due to the slack end float clearances that were improved in later boxes.

Eric

Mine is a hybrid mix of Monte and VX with a few bits of Integrale.   

[mangocrazy]

Thanks Eric, I will check with Day & White on Monday. I can't imagine they would have overlooked that.

[Nigel]

Graham,
You'll know by the number of old bearings they gave back to you, maybe.

Thanks for that info Eric.

Nigel

[Nigel]

Well, I took Eric's advice and removed the gearbox this afternoon.

I have the same issue as Graham, the clutch arm is stuck to the spline, so some work there.
The flywheel needs resurfacing, rusty pits from its 14 year standing, the clutch plate is
down to the rivets both sides. No serious oil leaks detected, but I'll change the crank seal.

For the gearbox, it seems crazy to refit without addressing the known issues, so more
research on bearings, gaskets and seals coming up.