Engine swap - comments wanted

[peteracs]

Hi All

Not a subject I have seen mentioned here, at least for a long time, so, interested in others view on using a different engine in the Beta. The reason for asking is that it appears to be an expensive route to get a 150+ bhp engine out of the Lampredi unit.

I have been watching a series of videos on YouTube published by a US based tuner company called Fasterproms. They normally work with V8 American engines, but as a project they have ‘upgraded’ a Smart car and installed a 2.4l Honda Vtec + Turbo. The end result was a paltry 500+bhp and more impressive, a huge amount of torque, making it a very drivable and quick car. See

https://youtu.be/8Mv7zLhtN68

This is the last video in the series, see the earlier ones for the engine install. Warning these are not in the Binky style, lots of high 5s and not a great amount of detail often, but gives you an idea of the project.

So following on from this I read this web page and wondered if the smaller VTec may be a good candidate to get 200+ bhp n/a without getting exotic. See

https://www.fastcar.co.uk/tuning/honda-vtec-tuning-guide/

Your thoughts?

Peter

[Neil-yaj396]

It will probably be doable, but I imagine whatever you spent would be knocked of the value of your car Peter. With Spider values climbing a good restored one in original or tuned spec would be worth perhaps £12k. The same car with a 200hp Ford Vtec or the like would be worth appreciably less I would say.

[squiglyzigly]

Maybe the cost of an alternative engine and the associated components and fabrication needed to facilitate installation would outweigh the cost of modifying the original unit to a reasonable output.
With old school super chargers and new school hybrid variants readily available, maybe an option to throw in the hat.  Although it wouldn’t give an original looking engine bay, it does keep the heart of the drivetrain intact.

Stay safe
Ian

[peteracs]

It will probably be doable, but I imagine whatever you spent would be knocked of the value of your car Peter. With Spider values climbing a good restored one in original or tuned spec would be worth perhaps £12k. The same car with a 200hp Ford Vtec or the like would be worth appreciably less I would say.

Hi Neil

If the car you have is in good overall condition, then keeping original would probably be preferred. I was really thinking along the lines of maybe a track car build from a less than pristine example, where the extra power would be useful and eg solve the oil pickup issues etc without going to the lengths of dry sump. Certainly it will not be a cheap option, but I suspect neither were the engines Eric has in his Monte and Spyder!

Peter

[mangocrazy]

It all depends to what use it would be put, I think. If it's for a track day car, then I'd say something like a Honda VTEC would be an excellent choice. Those engines thrive on revs, in fact positively demand revs to get the best out of them. If it was for a road car, then I'd say you'd find it a lot more frantic than an equivalent Lampredi unit and nowhere near as easy to live with on a day to day basis. The 'fast road' tune for the Lampredi unit that I am inching my way towards would be way more tractable and have much better torque at lower revs.

In motorcycle terms it's like comparing a modern 1000cc inline four cylinder making massive HP but at very high revs to a similarly sized V-twin making a lot less power, but having gobs of mid-rrange torque. I know which I'd prefer to ride in 'real world' conditions (i.e. away from the race track). On a track day of course, the four cylinder bike would annihilate the V-twin. Horses for courses.

[rossocorsa]

Personally I think it's not a good idea, firstly why do you particularly want 150bhp? If you are relating it to modern cars of that BHP it's important to remember that Betas aren't obese like moderns so they are pretty nippy on less power. Secondly I think Lancia used a lot of thought in the design of the Beta in terms of weight distribution, fitting another engine might lose the fine handling balance.
Big engineering job to fit a different engine too, I'm sure you could obtain something close to 150 without too much trouble using an original unit and therefore retaining the classic aura that it really needs.
I don't know about suitable engines but I do think that  Honda VTEC can be a little tiresome for road driving, fun in short doses though

[WestonE]

Hi Peter

Actually 150 BHP is not hard to get out of a twin cam. I achieved that with twin 45 DCOE Webers high compression pistons and standard cams. A GC 3A inlet standard exhaust cam with 3 angle valve seats and basic porting and manifold matching with see 170BHP 160 Ftlbs torque provided the exhaust is a good one. This spec allows cast piston rev limits to keep the cost down. You are still rebuilding an engine but thanks to GC you have good reference info. In the real world that is plenty in a Spyder on standard suspension.

Probably still cheaper and easier in the end than the 1.8T Audi engine standard transplant which is better than the high revving Honda.

Eric

   

[mangocrazy]

This is what Guy's original book gives as a requirement for a 'fast road' Beta.

The main component for increasing BHP are, as Eric says, the 45 DCOE Webers. You'd need one of Guy's manifolds, higher comp pistons than standard and the head ported and flowed to suit, but that's pretty much it.

[Nigel]

Hi all,
I've recently driven a couple of 3 cyl turbo-engined cars, the Swift and the Fiesta.
If I was thinking of a swop such as Peter suggests then the Ford 1.5 Ecoboost would be a contender.
Also perhaps the Suzuki 1.4 BoosterJet.

Rgds
Nigel

[rossocorsa]

Hi all,
I've recently driven a couple of 3 cyl turbo-engined cars, the Swift and the Fiesta.
If I was thinking of a swop such as Peter suggests then the Ford 1.5 Ecoboost would be a contender.
Also perhaps the Suzuki 1.4 BoosterJet.

Rgds
Nigel

A Fiat/Abarth 1.4 t jet ideally with garret turbo would be a more civilised route and old school in character, also not so complicated I think and capable of 220 bhp if mapped. That's modern bhp mind horses in the 70s and 80s seem to have been a bit bigger