Beta Spider 2000 engine rebuild/refurb

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

Bad luck, would the ex pat guy you are thinking of be Simon Ingman who has a number of old Lancias?

If not then maybe send him a message, you can find his contact email on the LMC forum under simonandjuliet or you can contact them via their wine website, https://domainelatasque.com/contact-us

Best of luck…..

Peter

[WestonE]

Hi Nigel,

Horrible! Also look for threadsert and mail order is your friend. The swarf will go into the water jacket for the most part BUT tank tape over every hole in the block before you start you want zero swarf in the engine.

Good luck/ Bon Chance 

Eric 

[mangocrazy]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for that - I've used the 'Contact Us' form on the website to leave a message for Simon.

Eric,

Yes there are mail order suppliers that can provide me with a Helicoil kit  within the week, but by that time Nigel will have returned to the UK so the immediate focus is on trawling any engineering suppliers I can find. I did look at threadsert but concluded that it wouldn't withstand 60 lb/ft of tightening torque - I may be wrong on this of course. Will definitely mask off every part of the block except for the offending thread.

Thanks for your comments and help - much appreciated.

Graham (and Nigel)

[peteracs]

Hi Graham/Nigel

Any joy?

Peter

[mangocrazy]

Hi Peter,

I've tried all the quincailleries (hardware/ironmonger stores) in Pezenas and Beziers for a helicoil kit and drawn a blank. Also my friend who lives down here has asked at various places and they can all order one in, but by the time it arrives Nigel will be back in the UK. I ordered a helicoil kit off a French eBay seller and it should arrive late this week/early next week, but again it will arrive after Nigel has left.

Tomorrow I think we'll concentrate on making up a rudimentary jig so that any drilling/tapping/inserting operations into the block will be at as close to 90 degrees as we can possibly make it.

At least the 'Arrogant Frog' red wine we had with our evening meal was very enjoyable... 

Graham

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

That is a shame. Hope the rest goes ok when you get the kit.

Peter

[mangocrazy]

Wouldn't you know it? Helicoil kit arrived 10:30 French time this morning. Nigel's plane left Montpellier at 10:00.

I won't be rushing into getting the Helicoil done; I'll take my time over it.

[Nigel]

Wouldn't you know it? Helicoil kit arrived 10:30 French time this morning. Nigel's plane left Montpellier at 10:00.

I won't be rushing into getting the Helicoil done; I'll take my time over it.

'Perfect' timing hey Graham! French post at its best.

Front door at around 1400 after a 3/4 hour delayed t/off, and hold for 20 mins over GTW.
Hope you get that pillar drill operational soon.

Something I thought of while airborne: I suggest that you find a suitable lump of cast iron, or maybe aluminium,
and do a test drilling, tapping and fitting of a coil. It'll help to rest-easy when doing the real thing?

Cheers for now,
Nigel

[mangocrazy]

Hi Nigel,

So the return journey took a bit longer than expected, then? I managed to get hold of Kevin (Irish electrician working in South of France) and he popped round at lunch time. He finally got power to the drill, but still no joy. Looks like one of the motor windings is kaput, and to add to the fun the 'start' button is faulty. So that drill won't be turning this year. I'll give Andy a ring and see if he knows anyone who has a pillar drill. Don't think I have any lumps of cast iron or ali knocking about, unfortunately.

Will keep you posted on developments (or lack of).

Graham

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

Sorry to hear about the trials, I normally find French deliveries to take 2-3 days due to the distances unlike in the U.K. when you expect next day for a lot of the country.

With your current run of luck, can I suggest you maybe duck out of buying a lottery ticket this week?

Peter

[mangocrazy]

Hi Peter,

Yes I'm being very circumspect in anything even very slightly risky at the moment...

But there is better news to report. I rang up Andy (an ex-pat who has been living in France for around 20 years to ask if anyone he knows has a pillar drill. He replied to my delight that he had a small pedestal drill but wasn't sure it would be man enough for the job. I assured him that it would be, as I was only drilling into timber and simply wanted to make a rudimentary jig that would give me a more accurate 90 degree/perpendicularity than I could manage by hand.

So long story short, I now have a jig that I can bolt to the block and which will give me as close to 90 degrees as possible, and more importantly will allow the drill to self centre. Initially I was going to run multiple strips of masking tape over the block face to stop any swarf going where I didn't want it to, but eventually decided to use a sheet of cardboard with holes cut in for the two locating studs, the thread I was drilling and tapping, and the dowel that sits very close to one of the locating studs. I wasn't keen on leaving any residue on the block face, and masking tape isn't the strongest of stuff. Hopefully the picture below explains better than I can.

I'm now just trying to find my big Billy boy bravery boots before I start...

Nigel,

I bet you never imagined that your breakfast cereal box would be re-purposed in this fashion... 

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

Brilliant stuff, here’s hoping all goes according to plan, fingers crossed!

Peter

[mangocrazy]

No-one ever said it would go without incident and it certainly didn't, but I think I have enough thread of sufficient holding power in the block to at least get the car back to the UK (after some reliability testing in France). The jig worked really well and I cannot begin to imagine how I could have done the job witthout it (or something similar). The drilling out process was nervy - no matter what combination of drill speed and pressure I used the drill bit would find ways to grab, but in the end the hole got drilled and it looked and felt perpendicular to the block. I also used the jig to guide the tap in (having drilled out the jig hole to accommodate the tap) and this made the all-important first few threads easy to cut. I was having to use a fair amount of force to cut the thread, but not so much that it threatened to snap the tap. Cast iron feels 'grainy' when tapping, not like mild steel.

Then we came to the business of inserting the Helicoil. The first one I tried, I can only assume I used too much initial pressure on the tool, as the insert went in at what looked like every other thread - i.e. a very coarse pitch thread when it should be a fine 1.25mm pitch. Once I realised this the only way out was to drill out the helicoil and start again. Thankfully I was able to do this (with the aid of the jig), leaving behind the thread to accept the helicoil, which I then ran the supplied tap down 2 or 3 times. The thread didn't seem any the worse for wear and so with much trepidation I put a second helicoil on to the tool and very carefully started the insert into the thread. Thankfully this time the internal thread was a genuine M10 x 1.25, which I verified by carefully running a head bolt down it.

I now had a bit of a dilemma. The inserts are only 10mm deep, which is a long way short of the 20-22mm of thread depth the standard head bolts occupy. So I decided to try and use 2 inserts, one above the other. The first one went in until there was 12-13mm of free thread above it, which I was happy with. So I broke off the tang, and put another insert on to the tool and threaded that in, until it bottomed out against the lower insert. The top of the insert was about 1-2mm below the block deck, so that was ideal. When I tried a head bolt down the newly Helicoiled thread the first part (on the top insert) felt very good - minimal pressure needed, but no slop or wobble. But then when I came to the lower insert it went very stiff, to the point that I wasn't prepared to continue.

I had assumed that the thread would continue without any real separation between the lower and upper inserts, but it appears that when threading the insert in, the coil of thread is actually stretched. albeit not by much. This means that the threads of the two inserts are out of step, as I found out. So I suspect I will need to take some careful measurements aind shorten one of the head bolts so it only tightens against the upper insert and doesn't impinge on the lower insert, as that would throw the torque figures right out. I am told that a Helicoil repair is actually stronger than the original thread, and it looks like I will have the chance to test this out...

So we have progress, but I don't feel that I'm out of the woods just yet. The head will have to be successfully torqued down on all bolts and the engine running properly before I can feel confident.

[SanRemo78]

Having removed one inserted helical is it worth removing the upper one so that the head bold doesn't need cutting down? Or is that one risk too far?

Guy

[mangocrazy]

Having removed one inserted helical is it worth removing the upper one so that the head bold doesn't need cutting down? Or is that one risk too far?

Guy

I was bricking it when I had to remove the wrongly threaded helicoil. It knackered two drills in doing it, and I don't have any similarly sized drills, so I'm going to let sleeping dogs lie. I'll make some careful measurements tomorrow and decide on a plan of action then. Enough excitement for the day, I think... 

[Nigel]

Graham,
I certainly chuckled seeing the cereal box, glad to have obliged!

I'm surprised the 2 helicoils didn't line up as, as we had discussed, one thread with
two coils should not be an issue. Perhaps the act of allowing the second
to contact the first caused the binding? Not sure.

Idea: perhaps file off the lower part of the bolt thread a bit, but not completely, allowing the full length
to operate but with much less stiffness. maybe try this on one of the old bolts first. In other words
you're slightly reducing the outer width of the bolt thread for the lower coil.

Good luck, and glad to hear of rapid progress!

Nigel

[peteracs]

Hi Graham

 Nice idea on the double helicoil and yes did for-see an issue with matched threads. I suggest you run your tap down the two inserts to clear them so you can use a standard bolt.

Peter

[Nigel]

Hi Graham

 Nice idea on the double helicoil and yes did for-see an issue with matched threads. I suggest you run your tap down the two inserts to clear them so you can use a standard bolt.

Peter

Yes, better idea than mine.

Nigel

[mangocrazy]

Thanks for the comments. Now I've had time to distance myself and clear my head a bit I'm going to try Peter's suggestion of running my M10 x 1.25 tap down the thread. It should be fine on the top insert, but will meet stiff resistance on the lower insert, I think.

Another thing that is giving me pause for thought is wondering where all the spare bits of metal swarf have wound up. There are 3 x helicoil tangs down somewhere in the pit of the engine along with assorted bits of swarf from various drilling and tapping operations. I did follow Nigel's suggestion of loading the drills and tap up with grease so the swarf would stick to it, but I'm sure some must have fallen down into the pits of doom. Or am I worrying unnecessarily?

[Nigel]

Hi Graham,
I agree the swarf is an issue.

The gauze in the oil pick-up should not let those bits get to the oil pump, and,
as they are 'heavy', compared to filings, should fall to the bottom.

A magnetic drain plug is available from AE Car Parts #2133680  which will help.
Several oil changes will also help.

Ultimately, removing and cleaning the sump is best, but as it's not an easy task given
your facilities, I'd go with the above.

Nigel