Beta problems in France

[mangocrazy]

My Spider has been resident in France since about 2008, and in the last couple of months I finally managed to get it registered in France as a 'Vehicule de Collection'. With that done, I was intending to bring it back to the UK to do a full refurb of engine, suspension, bodywork etc. and flew down last week with the intention of driving it back.

However, the car had other ideas...

The day before we were due to start the drive back (last Thursday) we drove about 25-30kms away for a spot of retail therapy. On the way back a very unpleasant screeching/graunching noise started emanating from the offside under-bonnet area. I suspected something fanbelt-related and limped back to our village and the local garagiste. Had I known then what I know now, I'd have simply parked the car in my garage and booked some flights back to the UK.

The garagiste appeared to agree that the problem was with the fanbelt, but said he couldn't order one until the following morning. When the fanbelt arrived and he came to fit it, he quickly discovered that the water pump had given up the ghost and was the root problem. He was also not happy with the state of the cambelt and idler bearing, in spite of these having been replaced in the last 1000 miles. By now it was Monday afternoon (things move awful slow in rural France) and the parts wouldn't arrive until the following afternoon.

When he got round to fitting the parts (Wed morning) reassembly went OK and he started the engine, and it idled fine for several minutes (or so he said), right until the time it locked up. I wasn't present at this time, so can only take his word for it. An hour or so later, after trying to find the reason for the lock-up, I called a halt to proceedings and told him to step away from the tools (politely, of course). My neighbour is currently looking after getting the car removed from the garagiste's premises and reinstalled in my lock-up garage, while we flew back to the UK.

I'm now trying to figure out what the best course of action is. I also have a lock-up garage in the UK that has two Beta motors in it and am tentatively thinking of combining the best bits of both to take down to France next year in my van as a drop-in replacement for the problematic unit. I must admit I'm more than a little concerned as to what damage has been done to the original engine, especially as I was preparing to strip it and then hand it over to GC for a full refurb and uprate. If it could have lasted another 1000 miles then it would have been a very different story.

Any comments/suggestions very welcome...

[rossocorsa]

I hope not but sounds to me suspiciously like a mistimed aux drive in which case the engine will probably be toast, hopefully not though

[mangocrazy]

Yes, that was in my thoughts as well. What components get trashed if that is the case? My worst fear is damage to the crank and/or block. Anything else (within reason) can be worked around. The motor was due to have a rebore, new pistons/rings, new rods and GC's cranks mods done to it (among other things).

[rossocorsa]

Could be a hole in the block

[mangocrazy]

Could be a hole in the block

Would that show itself as an external hole, or is it more likely to be internal?

[rossocorsa]

Never seen it myself so not  sure but someone else will no doubt clarify

[thecolonel]

If the aux shaft is mis aligned then it
will knock against no. 1 rod, most
likely it will have damaged the shells.
Depends on how long it was run for.

[rossocorsa]

number two rod surely?

[mangocrazy]

I'm relying on a) what the garagiste said and b) my translation of his French. He implied that the engine had been running for a while (minutes rather than seconds) when it locked up, but as I wasn't there to verify that I can't be sure. I arrived not long after the engine locked up, as far as I could determine. What I was sure of is that the engine could not be turned through more than a few degrees by a spanner on the crank nut after the incident. After a few tries I told him to give up and not try any further (and make a bad situation worse).

If the only possible damage would be to the bearing shells then I'm slightly relieved. I'm intending to completely overhaul the motor and new rods and shells will be fitted as part of that. My big concern is the crank itself and the block. If both those are unscathed then I shall breathe a big sigh of relief, but obviously I won't know for sure until the motor is fully stripped.

I'd have thought that if the auxiliary shaft was misaligned, then interference would occur pretty well as soon as the engine was started, wouldn't it?

[rossocorsa]

you would probably hear it knocking it is this impact that can cause damage, probably depends on the relative positions. anyway when its rebuilt make sure you have the aux drive cut and plugged and use an electric  pump instead

[mangocrazy]

Yes, the ironic thing is that I've already converted to an electric fuel pump and was intending to get this lobe cut off when the engine was stripped. My concerns now are what damage (if any) is likely to have been done to block and crank.

And I'm not going to know until the engine is removed from the car (currently in France) and brought back to the UK. At present I'm not planning to visit the house until April 2016 at the earliest, although that may well change...

[thecolonel]

Alan you're most likely correct
I'm old so I'm excused.

[rossocorsa]

Alan you're most likely correct
I'm old so I'm excused.

I have got to the stage where I forget the names of things quite regularly so age is catching me up!

[lukasdeopalenica]

I have experienced quite similar situation, however my engine did not lock up. When I was assembling the engine I wrongly set the markings on the auxiliary shaft pulley, lined it not with tensioner spring bolt but with notch on the engine block, which is turned about 120degrees anticlockwise - I have no idea what this mark is for. However before starting the engine I turned the crank by hand few revolutions, and there were no colissions. After starting the engine a noisy knocking was audible, and after a while I stopped it. After a thorough investigation I realized the fatal mistake. Correct setting solve the problem. I thought at that time with no consequences. Unfortunately after about 2000km I started observing a drop in oil pressure. This thread I think answered my question, as collision of the connecting rod (bolt?) with auxiliary shaft lobe can be linked with oil pressure drop. However, apart from low oil pressure there are no other signs. What can I expect that is damaged? Conrod, bolt, shell? Is it possible to replace the connecting rod or the shell with the engine in situ?

[WestonE]

Lukas

Stop driving the car until you have replaced Number 2 conrod with a replacement of known history. You would change the big ends and mains whilst doing this. The problem is raising the engine enough to remove the sump with the engine in place but it can be done. The head has to come off to remove the piston from the top on number 2 cylinder.

There are unfortunately hundreds of cases of number 2 conrod failing under load after being tapped by the Aux DS lobe. It snaps and punches a big hole in the block ruining your day. Many people use Guy Croft's modification of removing the lobe and using and electric fuel pump. It is annoying that Lancia left the lobe in place on IE VX and S1 Monte's that all had electric fuel pumps.

Good luck and sorry for the bad news.

Eric   

[lukasdeopalenica]

Thanks Eric for your reply. It seems to be not the smooth operationthough...
Should I replace all the shells (big-ends and main?, or just the no.2 big-end? As I said, the engine turns with a full clearance when rotating by hand...Probably it was the centrifugal force that makes the parts touching...
I will try to remove the sump first and have a look how it does look inside.

[WestonE]

Lukas

The bearings come in sets and it is not too hard to change them in situ and a good idea whilst you are there. But check number 2 big end first because if the crank is heavily scored hard decisions have to be made about stripping the engine for a full re-build. Generally replacing the bearings carefully and correctly on a sound engine before extreme wear develops improves oil pressure and engine life. You can buy Plasti gauge kits to measure the bearing clearances if you want to be sure and in a full re-build you would measure and check against the allowed sizes across all the bearings bores etc. I would also check and measure the clearances on the oil pump as a matter of course in your situation.

I hope it helps

Eric   

[lukasdeopalenica]

thanks Eric again for your wise advices.
I just found a picture of the engine showing the actual timing setting from the time before firing. Actually the misalignment was not so substantial, something about 30deg...
Anyway, it is my fault, because I set the aux pulley marking not to the spring bolt but to spring stopper bolt.
It is really hard to believe, why this horrible lobe is so sensitive to correct position. Does anyone know what is its posinion when the markings are set correctly? Is it in line with aux pulley position line?
Maybe it was not hitting, but just touching
Unfortunatelly I will have a chance to drop down the sump not before spring - too small garage.
cheers

[frankxhv773t]

Back at the original question and thinking about whether the engine had run for minutes or seconds, do you have any recollection of how warm it was and would that help?
I accept this is possibly lost in the mists of time.

On another tack, if a complete engine rebuild is needed would it make sense to take one of your UK spare engines to GC then only have to transport an engine one way to France?

[mangocrazy]

Back at the original question and thinking about whether the engine had run for minutes or seconds, do you have any recollection of how warm it was and would that help?
I accept this is possibly lost in the mists of time.

On another tack, if a complete engine rebuild is needed would it make sense to take one of your UK spare engines to GC then only have to transport an engine one way to France?

I wasn't present when the engine was run up prior to lock-up, but the engine had stood for several days, so would not have been even vaguely warm. The ambient temps were around 20 deg C, but I doubt that is the question you were asking.

I overwhelmingly want to use the original engine for the GC refurb, as it only has around 55k miles on it and I've owned it since 1987 and know its history. It's also the engine number that is on the UK log book and the French 'certificat d'immatriculation'. Replacing the original engine with a 'spare' and bringing the original back to the UK and getting it refurbished also means that I have the use of the car in the mean time and can drive it to the bodyshop (for example). One of the two spare engines I have is seized and probably scrap, the other is of unknown provenance.

Lukas, very sorry to hear of your mishap. I hope it works out OK for you. That fuel pump lobe has a lot to answer for...