Injectors not firing - why?

[rossocorsa]

Couldn't find my spare one in my pile of spares, might have already passed it on to someone or more likely it's there but well hidden. I think there is a difference between ecu on cars with or without digiplex but not sure my memory is a bit vague on the subject.

[LanciaNut69]

Thanks for looking, Rossocorsa - makes sense that could be the difference - 174 for digiplex and 216 without maybe.  I've seen mention of ECU swaps, but no actual results. I guess we'll find out soon enough depending on,what I can get my hands on!

Cheers

Darren

[thecolonel]

Darren,
Just getting ready to post,
 the two I have are:

0 280 000 174. and
0 280 000 216

which do you prefer ?

[thecolonel]

Gone back through the thread, I'll send the 174

[LanciaNut69]

Correct!  Thanks again, Geoff, much appreciated!

All the best,

Darren

[gengis]

Curiosity has got the better of me, I checked my perfectly running Fiat 124 Spider and Lancia Coupe ie both with L-jetronic to see what ECU they were running.

Fiat 124 Spider - 0 280 000 190.  Which runs with Magnetti Marelli electronic ignition.  Injector coil values = 2.2 ohms.  (light grey body)

Lancia Coupe ie - 0 280 000 216.  Which runs with Digiplex ignition.  Injector coil values = 2.2 ohms.  (light grey body)

I have run the Spider perfectly well with the spare 216 ECU, as the Spider is a U.S. derived car I thought the 216 would run better because the U.S. 190 would looking for an input from the catalyst.  But it makes no difference.  At the moment the Spider is running with Mark Allisons Computronix Distributorless Ignition and the original 190 ECU, all this is mated to a Strada 130 engine.  At a recent visit to the dyno this set up produced 118 bhp at the wheels.  So there is a degree of compatabilty.

I also checked a spare Argenta fuel rail with injectors, which looks the same as the Spider/Coupe rail.  
Injector coil values = 15.8 ohms  (yellow body)

Hope some of this info is useful.

[LanciaNut69]

Hi Gengis,

Just had a quick look at the injectors I have.  The ones fitted to the car have a creamy type of body.  The connectors are grey and the nozzles of the jets are orange.  The other injectors I have have a grey body and a cream nozzle.  Both sets are 2.8 Ohms.  I have no info as to whether these are the original injectors or not.

Cheers

Darren

[Tone]

Thanks for looking, Rossocorsa - makes sense that could be the difference - 174 for digiplex and 216 without maybe. 

No. I've got 0 280 000 174. And it's not digiplex.

[Tone]

 At the moment the Spider is running with Mark Allisons Computronix Distributorless Ignition and the original 190 ECU, all this is mated to a Strada 130 engine.  At a recent visit to the dyno this set up produced 118 bhp at the wheels.  So there is a degree of compatabilty.

Do you have photos of this installation? And what about signal from the coil to ECU?

[LanciaNut69]

Ok chaps,

Next update is that having fitted the ECU very kindly lent to my by Geoff, the problem still persists.  I have to conclude that the injectors are not getting power, which points to the twin relay.  I guess it shouldn't be that much of a surprise given that its 30 years old! I will check through the schematic I have and produce something with modern relays once I have separately powered them to see if it solves the issue.

Update to follow soon as I have it.

Cheers

Darren

[LanciaNut69]

Hello all,

It's been a while now but I did manage to chase down the issue, but not how exactly to reliably solve the issue!!  Every part of the system has been checked and whilst there is nothing wrong per se, the issue is that when there is a demand on the engine, the timing is retarded, which acts a bit like a rev limiter.

As long as you don't use the accelerator, she'll quite happily cruise along, right up until you put your foot down on the loud pedal!  You can get a clean rev through the range by manually adjusting the rotor arm in the air flow meter, but as the issue is not linear, tightening the spring to richen the mixture does not help!

The only reliable way to solve this is to fit a modern injection/management system, which is what I shall be doing.  The intention is to be able to provide a kit of bits that can be added or replace existing parts, but leaving the engine bay to look as though it were still running the old system.  I will start a new topic once things are under way and I can show some pics of how it all looks.

Thanks again for your help so far and I'll be posting soon!

Cheers

Darren

[gengis]

Sounds like it could be a fuel or air delivery problem...I would change the fuel pressure regulator and leave the air filter off and try it.

[rossocorsa]

Is there not a vacuum connection on the digiplex unit? If so I suspect that the digiplex unit is faulty

[LanciaNut69]

Hi Gengis - been there, done that. New fuel pump, new regulator, new filter, different AFMs, Aux Airs, Digiplexs, ECU, Loom, Dual Relay, Fuel Rail, Injectors, etc etc etc.  Issue is old stuff that can't be reliably fixed.  I could spend more weeks and weeks chasing this glitch about and still not have decent reliability.

Let me show you what I can do with a stealth modern upgrade!

Cheers

Darren

ps - Rossocorsa - thanks chap, already changed!!

[rossocorsa]

Thank goodness the vx had carbs! Having said that I can't  say that I've heard too many problems with the injection system bit surprising really

[thecolonel]

Sorry none of the spare parts helped.
I remember Thotos (Theo) took the
side cover off an airflow meter are
played/adjusted the internals, think
it was in a gamma, but same basic
system.

[LanciaNut69]

Hi Geoff,

That's exactly what I did to get an even acceleration, but it wasn't a linear adjustment so bending the arm or tightening the spring would only have a minimal benefit.  Not to worry on the spares chap - would you like them back?  Happy to call in again for a cuppa!

Cheers

Darren

[WestonE]

Guys

I will back Darren on this one as I have been "on call" for multiple steps of this challenge working through it system by system and I know something about these cars and FI. The car had already been to the respected Northampton Motorsport unsuccessfully and Darren had his findings checked at Storm Developments who have a vast and deep knowledge of all things Fuel Injection and Pressure charged (Time Attack cars and 1000 BHP Audi A3s). NB they mapped my 277BHP FI Montecarlo and the GC FI engine on throttle bodies so brave enough to work with Lancias.

When do you stop when you have multiple old components that are un-reliable? Darren will be changing the old sensors and providing a vastly more capable ECU that can easily cope with tuned engine components whilst giving great economy and easy starting.

If you have an IE and it starts to fail this could put a smile back on your face.

If it was my car I think I might have kept hitting it with a hammer until I felt better frankly. I really look forward to hearing this one is on the road being enjoyed.

Eric

   

[peteracs]

The only reliable way to solve this is to fit a modern injection/management system, which is what I shall be doing.  The intention is to be able to provide a kit of bits that can be added or replace existing parts, but leaving the engine bay to look as though it were still running the old system.  I will start a new topic once things are under way and I can show some pics of how it all looks.

That would be a great option as the number of queries that keep cropping up with the IE system not running properly appears quite high. I also think a reliable and hopefully more efficient system would be a bonus. I know folk say the injection system runs much more smoothly than the original carb version and would be a good option if you do not want to go the whole hog with throttle bodies etc, but want an improvement.

Peter

[DARREN BETA. SPYDER]

as some would say hit it with hammer, well its my i.e darrens working on and i was close to giving up with it or smashing it , it was very fustrating never knowing if it would start or run reasonably smooth , its nice to keep original as we can but sometimes things have to change to get the enjoyment of driving back , darren has run through it with me and we decided that fitting a emerald ecu would be best option , excellent work darren , i,m fully positive i can soon get beta weaving round the countryside lanes and hopefully join up at shows or meets