Super-Duplex Beta brakes

[mangocrazy]

Having just visited the Lancia in an ultimately fruitless attempt at registering the car in France, and having had occasion to bleed the brakes, a number of thoughts regarding the front brakes occur to me. My main feeling was one of relief that I didn't snap off any of the bleed nipples, due mainly to the judicious application of heat and Plus-Gas (but not at the same time).

The 'Super-Duplex' system may have seemed a great idea at the time, but these days it's all looking a bit 'why bother'? (Well, to me, anyway). The problems that I see with it are as follows:

There really is very little space to manoeuvre around the front calipers when you have two sets of brake pipes and two bleed nipples crammed into a small space. When trying to bleed the outer circuit (i.e. nearest the disc), it's impossible to fit a ring spanner over the bleed nipple due to stuff getting in the way. The only way to manage it is to use a socket, which means that you can't have a bleed tube fitted to the nipple while opening/closing it.

What benefit does the system actually provide? Has anybody ever been grateful for the increased amount of 'security' afforded by the system?

Doesn't the increased amount of fluid/pipework in the system mean that the brakes will have a more spongey feel?

Has anybody dispensed with either of the circuits and gone back to a simpler arrangement of one pipe per caliper? Is this possible (or even desirable)?

All comments gratefully received...

[WestonE]

Graham

These were Lancia's take on dual circuit brakes for safety and not a silly idea as all the real braking is at the front.

If you disconnected one circuit you would lose a lot of front braking and lose the balance front to rear as both pistons push in this design.

I had to work out the dynamics to build up a 4 piston alternative as Mark W is trying out and I will be fitting 4 pistons Hi Spec race calipers to my spyder on 284 vented discs once the mounts are finished.

However this also involves re-plumbing at the MC to use the former mixed circuit for the front and the former 2nd front circuit on the rear. This gives some protection against leaks in one circuit but not as good as a diagonal split but that would need a new MC as well.

Eric   

[MattNoVAT]

Socket to break the seal on the bleed nipple and then an open ended spanner to open/close and still allow a bleed tube.  Once bled, socket to "nip up" the bleed nipple.

That's what I've always done.

[spud]

My method too.

With braided hoses I think the Beta brakes are superb, even by 'today' standards.

Andrew.

[lanciamad]

Although I have drilled discs, a better pad and braided brake lines the system is effectively original on my car and has coped with track day abuse without any great drama proving how good the system is. I'd say it's just as good if not better than the brakes on my HFT that runs vented front discs for comparison.
Future developments for my car will probably be as Eric's mentioned with some hi-spec calipers, once i've worn through my discs/pads got some bigger wheels to suit and let Mark test the system fully.
I would have thought the size of pipe or amount of fluid in the system should be really irrelevant, a spongey pedal normally indicates air in the system.

[WestonE]

Chaps

A couple of small things. The rubber hoses can reduce feel and the vaious pivots and ball joints need lube and adjustment for great braking.
Improvements can be made on the brake linkage cross link which is weak and flexes. I will be using a tube with left and right hand thread ends on mine as this is stiffer than the 8mm bar. Pedal travel and loss of feel is always greater in sliding pattern calipers hence my move to relatively light 4 piston calipers. But remember I will be running 285BHP so my needs may not be yours and these brakes need 15 inch wheels. I think standard Beta brakes in good condition are good compared to many vehicles, but Marcus will see serious fade over a race distance when he upgrades to a full on race engine. On fast road Betas I would invest in the suspension induction and exhaust before upgrading the brakes beyond good discs slides pads hoses and calipers.

Beta brakes thank fully are not like standard Montecarlo brakes which can be plain terrifying.

Eric   

[VXdeMayo]

Dear All,
I am considering the posibility of upgrading the standard super duplex brake hoses with something better. This will only be for road use, not competition.
I have seen on ebay a company called " Modworld_Parts" who offer a 6 piece stainless "Black Diamond" brake hose kit for a very reasonable sum of £67. I wonder if anyone has had any experience with this product or company? Any advise would be appreciated.
Best,
Chas,
(VXdeMAYO).

[MattNoVAT]

Chas,

I think Hutch tried these a while ago and struggled with them.  IIRC he had issues with the unions being incorrect in some way.  I know he wasn't happy with all the messing around.  Run a search under braided hoses or all posts from Hutch6610

If your using the car for standard road use why not just replace like for like.  For road use I have found these to be more than up to the job if you have good fluid in the hydraulic system.  New ones are still available, I bought a new set, not NOS, for £40.

If it ain't broke...

[VXdeMayo]

Thanks Matt, you have saved me a lot of potential aggro. I just thought that they would improve the brake feel. (I have some goodridge braideds fitted to my 124 Spider Pininfarina, and they look so much better)!
Possibly time to save up for a set of Goodridge again??
(Isn't this forum great for sharing experience),Best,
Chas,
(VXdeMAYO).

[MattNoVAT]

Here's the original thread from Hutch....

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=664.0

I fully agree, the forum is here to help and allow others to benefit from a shared experiences.....

Life would be tougher without it!

[andybeta]

Thanks Matt, you have saved me a lot of potential aggro. I just thought that they would improve the brake feel. (I have some goodridge braideds fitted to my 124 Spider Pininfarina, and they look so much better)!
Possibly time to save up for a set of Goodridge again??
(Isn't this forum great for sharing experience),Best,
Chas,
(VXdeMAYO).

But are they an improvement or just stylistic bling  ?

[thecolonel]

I certainly prefer the "feel" of stainless steel hoses

Geoff

[lanciamad]

Me too, i've got braided goodridge lines on my HF Turbo and track HPE and a worthy investment IMHO. Having taken the standard setup to its maximum, i'm going to look into uprating the brakes considerably for the future on a very similar setup Mark has come up with, but with a twist. First I better get it on the road and wear the current setup out

[WestonE]

Chaps I should have my new mounts for Hi Spec R132-4 callipers on 284 x 22 discs in a weeks time , but it will be some time before I can road test them!

Eric

[mangocrazy]

Chaps I should have my new mounts for Hi Spec R132-4 callipers on 284 x 22 discs in a weeks time , but it will be some time before I can road test them!

Eric

We expect to see lots of nice hi-res photos to drool over, at the very least...