Possibility of new source for Beta dampers/struts

[mangocrazy]

Hi All,

Having noted the general concern over the lack of suspension options available for the Beta family, I decided to contact a guy I've known for quite a while who is a suspension specialist and has intimate knowledge of the Koni range of shocks/dampers. His name is Jon Slenzak and may be known to some of you on here. He's definitely one of the good guys, anyway.

I put my questions to him and suggested he browsed the Suspension section of this forum to better understand the problems we face. He replied this morning, and here is the text of his reply:

Graham,
 
I did my homework last night and have a few solutions to the Beta damper problems listed on the Lancia Beta website.
 
It is true that the Koni struts and inserts are not available anymore (Discontinued  before 1999) but there is a couple of ways that Konis could be modified to work.
1 With the original Koni struts they can be repaired and serviced (around £100 per strut)
2 Original Lancia non sealed units could have inserts installed and Damper tops modified to fit the application (From £125 to £275 per strut)
         a original damping and lengths
         b original damping and lengths with external rebound damping adjustment
         c race type inserts with external rebound and bump adjustments
3 Original sealed units could be modified to accept inserts (about £15 more per unit than #2 above)
4 New struts could be fabricated or existing units modified but I think cost would be prohibitive.
 
Existing units could also be modified to adjustable coilover units which would give you height adjustment as well as the ability to use off the shelf springs for tuning purposes.
 
These are only a few ideas that I have come up with so far. I will get back to you with a few more later today.
 
Best Regards,
Jon Slenzak
www.info@s1suspension.co.uk
www.s1suspension.co.uk

I don't know how this sounds to the people on here, and whether this is a definite improvement or not, as I have to say I'm not fully up to speed with all the issues around Beta suspension. However, knowing Jon I'd bet that he could find an answer to most problems of a technical nature.

If people would like to use this thread as a place to post their concerns and wishes, I'll do my best to relay these to Jon. As this thread is in the publicly-viewable section of the forum he will of course be able to view any responses himself. We may even be able to get him to join the forum and reply directly, I don't know.

Anyway - fire away...

[WestonE]

Graham

I replied to the thread above this as I am in the market for coilovers for my Beta Spyder and lack the Colonels engineering genius and eBay purchase luck or the will to pay Leda £1400 plus VAT for a car set even though I love the Ledas Coilovers on my Montecarlo. Mark Wastnidge has done a lot to fix the sealed strut with good body but leaking issue if people would only stop throwing them away and give them to Mark a lot of Beta owners will have a nice solution with the Spax inserts.

However Beta Coupe and Spyders have a squat under power issue that coilovers and adjustable struts can dial out. The alternative is to take 2cm out of the rear strut/insert rod to increase preload as I have done in the past. Safe front camber adjustment is also highly desirable on power steering cars as it dramatically improves turn in response and grip and adds more weight and feel to the steering. I did this on my previous Beta Spyder (now Terry Wood's as seen at the NEC this year) along with converting to Power steering and it is a great improvement. Without power steering it is not wise as the heavy at parking speeds steering becomes a serious issue.

Eric

[Neil-yaj396]

I'm just after and all round revamp to original spec. Ideally I'd just like to buy a set of powder coated struts (with or without inserts as I have a full set of them) ready to fit to the car. To the best of my knowledge there is a sealed unit and a replacable unit on the rear, which is the priority. I think both front struts are sealed. I've banged on about this quite a bit on this and the LMC forum but don't seem to have got very far, yet there is clearly a market amongst us for standard and uprated struts.

Thanks for coming in Jon. £125 per corner would be Ok, but £275 far too much. Any further suggestions or offers of parts would be welcome. Also can anyone explain the process of converting sealed struts with the parts offered by Betaboyz?

[mangocrazy]

Hi Neil,

Yes, there certainly seems a need for  a (reasonably) standardised solution, which was why I approached Jon. The difference between £125 per corner and £275 per corner is down to the difference in performance/function/quality of the solution (at least, as I read it).

£125 per corner buys you original Lancia non sealed units with inserts installed and Damper tops modified to fit the application, but with original damping and lengths.

At the other extreme, £275 per corner buys you original Lancia non sealed units with inserts installed and Damper tops modified to fit the application, but with race type inserts with external rebound and bump adjustments.

I don't know how much the middle option (b) would cost - somewhere in the middle, I would guess.

For me, the option of 'Existing units could also be modified to adjustable coilover units which would give you height adjustment as well as the ability to use off the shelf springs for tuning purposes.' sounds the best for a long-term solution. I'm not sure the costs involved for this, though...

[MattNoVAT]

Hi Neil,

Having read the thread on the suspension I see a familiar theme running that is probably encountered by many owners of older cars with discontinued parts such as ours.  There simply isn't the demand for companies to re-make these items and it be cost effective.  Like Eric I too have experience of Leda & GAZ Gold shocks for the Beta.  Although these remade items are top quality, you pay through the nose for them. This often puts people off from the very start.

If you want "like new" items then IMO your pretty much resigned to collecting spares, like strut bodies, stripping them down yourself and having them shot blasted and powder coated yourself. Then rebuild and fit to car, performing the same thing on the set removed from the car.   There are so few people doing what Beta parts that it's not cost effective, but restoring old cars is tantamount to standing at the side of the road shredding £20 notes.

Sure there are people out there that have New Old Stock selling on places like eBay, but the vast majority of the time they want top dollar for it. Occasionally good stuff comes along and if your lucky then you can get it at a half decent price.  But its a waiting game and its something I do regularly because little gems do crop up!  Alternatively, you buy an old wreck of a car and strip the vital components and store them.... something I've just done!  Over time I refurbish parts, not only for myself but others I know with Betas. I'm must highlight the fact that I am a NPO!!

At best you might find another person or two who is after the same or similar job being done and you can club together. (I may well be doing all round standard  shocks very soon) but for group buys or club buys, companies want to do minimum of sets of 10 at a time, as its more cost effective for them.  All we can do is stockpile pairs of rear struts and get the good ones refurbished properly.

If we had say 6 - 10 (3 - 5 pairs) of rear strut bodies then it'd be cheaper to have them done, but return on covering costs would be very slow and that puts clubs off, when I come to do mine in the near future I'm resigned to them coming off the car and me stripping them down and having just that pair done. More expensive, but I do it because I love a project and I've learnt through doing several restorations on different cars that its pretty much what you have to do!

Have you looked at how much it would cost to strip and refurbish your existing set? Or is your car in use every day and you want to keep it on the road all the time.

Ultimately, my plan would be to have a pair of rear struts refurbished, sat on my shelf, when someone wanted them they exchange their old set for my refurbed ones and only pay the delta for the cost of refurbishing.  I would have done it this time round, but my Ex-Pat mate who lives in Italy urgently wanted the pair I had, so I shipped them over to him (Coals to Newcastle eh!!)

So, I just have to find another pair of empty rear strut bodies now!

[bravo-v8]

At that time I have the following parts for sale:
1 HPE and Berlina rear set of cartridge standard type from Kayaba at 200 Euros
1 HPE and Berlina rear set of cartridge gaz type from Kayaba at 240 Euros
1 set of rear legs for Coupe and spyder S/H at 120 Euros
3 set of front legs for HPE, coupe and spyder S/H 120 Euros per set
I can delivery Worlwide, paypal payment possible.
Best regards.

Eric
GT-Assistance

[Neil-yaj396]

Hi Neil,

Having read the thread on the suspension I see a familiar theme running that is probably encountered by many owners of older cars with discontinued parts such as ours.  There simply isn't the demand for companies to re-make these items and it be cost effective.  Like Eric I too have experience of Leda & GAZ Gold shocks for the Beta.  Although these remade items are top quality, you pay through the nose for them. This often puts people off from the very start.

If you want "like new" items then IMO your pretty much resigned to collecting spares, like strut bodies, stripping them down yourself and having them shot blasted and powder coated yourself. Then rebuild and fit to car, performing the same thing on the set removed from the car.   There are so few people doing what Beta parts that it's not cost effective, but restoring old cars is tantamount to standing at the side of the road shredding £20 notes.

Sure there are people out there that have New Old Stock selling on places like eBay, but the vast majority of the time they want top dollar for it. Occasionally good stuff comes along and if your lucky then you can get it at a half decent price.  But its a waiting game and its something I do regularly because little gems do crop up!  Alternatively, you buy an old wreck of a car and strip the vital components and store them.... something I've just done!  Over time I refurbish parts, not only for myself but others I know with Betas. I'm must highlight the fact that I am a NPO!!

At best you might find another person or two who is after the same or similar job being done and you can club together. (I may well be doing all round standard  shocks very soon) but for group buys or club buys, companies want to do minimum of sets of 10 at a time, as its more cost effective for them.  All we can do is stockpile pairs of rear struts and get the good ones refurbished properly.

If we had say 6 - 10 (3 - 5 pairs) of rear strut bodies then it'd be cheaper to have them done, but return on covering costs would be very slow and that puts clubs off, when I come to do mine in the near future I'm resigned to them coming off the car and me stripping them down and having just that pair done. More expensive, but I do it because I love a project and I've learnt through doing several restorations on different cars that its pretty much what you have to do!

Have you looked at how much it would cost to strip and refurbish your existing set? Or is your car in use every day and you want to keep it on the road all the time.

Ultimately, my plan would be to have a pair of rear struts refurbished, sat on my shelf, when someone wanted them they exchange their old set for my refurbed ones and only pay the delta for the cost of refurbishing.  I would have done it this time round, but my Ex-Pat mate who lives in Italy urgently wanted the pair I had, so I shipped them over to him (Coals to Newcastle eh!!)

So, I just have to find another pair of empty rear strut bodies now!

Matt Thanks for the reply. My car is in regular use and I prefer not to take it off the road for the remove and refurb option. In any case one of the struts is sealed and I am unsure of the mechanics of whether or not this can be repaired? Hence the question re the part sold by Betaboyz and whether this has to be ‘machined’ into place (and if so how?)

[Neil-yaj396]

Hi Neil,

Yes, there certainly seems a need for  a (reasonably) standardised solution, which was why I approached Jon. The difference between £125 per corner and £275 per corner is down to the difference in performance/function/quality of the solution (at least, as I read it).

£125 per corner buys you original Lancia non sealed units with inserts installed and Damper tops modified to fit the application, but with original damping and lengths.

At the other extreme, £275 per corner buys you original Lancia non sealed units with inserts installed and Damper tops modified to fit the application, but with race type inserts with external rebound and bump adjustments.

I would certainly be interested at struts at £125 per corner - how can I take this forward???

I don't know how much the middle option (b) would cost - somewhere in the middle, I would guess.

For me, the option of 'Existing units could also be modified to adjustable coilover units which would give you height adjustment as well as the ability to use off the shelf springs for tuning purposes.' sounds the best for a long-term solution. I'm not sure the costs involved for this, though...

I'd certainly be interested in struts at £125 per corner. How do I take this forward???

[mangocrazy]

Hi Neil,

I'd email Jon Slenzak direct and let him know your requirements. As far as I can tell his business email address is:

www.info@s1suspension.co.uk

Although if that doesn't work I'd be tempted to try

info@s1suspension.co.uk

He's very helpful and is based near Brackley, Northants. Don't know if that is good for you or not. I think what's really needed
is for a few folk to try him out with their requirements and report back. I've always found him helpful, knowledgeable and easy
to talk to.

Cheers,

Graham

[andybeta]

Hi Neil,

I'd email Jon Slenzak direct and let him know your requirements. As far as I can tell his business email address is:

www.info@s1suspension.co.uk

Although if that doesn't work I'd be tempted to try

info@s1suspension.co.uk

He's very helpful and is based near Brackley, Northants. Don't know if that is good for you or not. I think what's really needed
is for a few folk to try him out with their requirements and report back. I've always found him helpful, knowledgeable and easy
to talk to.

Cheers,

Graham

About 6 or 7 years ago I contacted a chap at Koni Silverstone. It may have been John back then, regarding converting a set of standard Beta struts to take Koni fully adjustable (on the car) inserts. The chap was extremely helpful and willing to help. The costs I remember being quoted were around the £200 per strut which didn't seem that bad for a fully adjustable (on car) Koni strut meaning about £800 for a full set. The original Koni period shocks were good but they were only adjustable off the car which was a PITA if you wanted to adjust them slightly you had to take them off again, so I set them at half way and was content with this. The pair I got were new old stock Koni fronts from Ebay from a German seller and I only just won them after a hard fought bidding war with other Lancisti. But I would have thought any insert whether Koni, Bilstein or Spax provided it could handle the weight of the car and have similar bounce/rebound characteristics would be fine. I would have thought the top mount and the bottom attachment would be the crucial areas specific to the Beta, but as you would be using an OE strut casing then this wouldn't be a problem. Blasting and repowder coating isn't that expensive. The only other thing to do is to cut the top off the strut casing and thread the internal lip to accomodate a threaded sleeve to locate the strut which can be screwed on over it, to hold it in place. The chap I spoke to at Koni at Silverstone said this wasn't a problem to do.

HTH.

[mangocrazy]

Hi Andy,

That could well have been Jon you spoke to. He's American (or possibly Canadian) by birth, if that helps) He has always (at least, since I've known him) lived and worked close to Silverstone and has always had strong ties with Koni, although for the last few years has not been working directly for them.

In the next few weeks I have to go to see someone who lives only a few miles away from Jon, so hopefully I might have the chance to drop in, see him in person and find out some more about what he can offer for Betas in the way of suspension. But I have every faith in Jon; if he can't do something suspension-wise, then chances are it's probably impossible...

Graham

[andybeta]

Iirc the chap I spoke to most definitely had an English accent and was part of an outfit that was or worked for Koni at Silverstone. If I come across the notes I made at the time and phone number I'll post them here, but it was quite a few years ago now, around 2004/2005, so the lead may well be defunct.

Andybeta

[rossocorsa]

found that http://www.record-france.fr/en/catalogue seem to still do inserts and http://www.gsfcarparts.com appear to be agents in the UK maybe worth a try although in reality  it is quite possible that they are NLA

[bravo-v8]

I can have Record strut for Lancia Beta at 240 Euros by set front or rear + delivery from France.
order at: eric-thomassey@gt-assistance.com

Eric

[rossocorsa]

I can have Record strut for Lancia Beta at 240 Euros by set front or rear + delivery from France.
order at: eric-thomassey@gt-assistance.com

Eric

sadly a bit pricey I suspect partly due to poor exchange rates