Just wondering.....

[droptop]

I have a 1990 Dedra Turbo 2.0 in need of mechanical work (brakes, exhaust) and a full respray but the engine/trans is excellent and the more I look at it, the more I realise I'll never spend the thousands required to make it decent.
That left me wondering if the engine has any hope of fitting and working successfully, in a Beta?
Now, I know the head is the "wrong way round" and it's not canted backwards so the balance would be a bit off, but aside from getting the exhaust to clear the subframe and the whole loom/sensors/ECU issuesa nd a suitable fuel tank rom an IE car, is there any point trying?
The car is practically worthless and I paid too much for it to break it, especially here in Ireland where Lancia has a tiny following and there are practically no other Dedras on the road but I'm reluctant to send it to the scrapyard.
I'm not going to attempt a transplant and ruin an otherwise good Beta and end up scrapping both cars if there isn't a viable course of action aside from the obvious one which in my mind is "leave well enough alone"

[WestonE]

I have seen an Integrale engine in a beta on the Internet recently but I cannot find it now. It was more common to put Thema engines into Montecarlos back in the day and I know Darren at Monte Servicing and repair is just about to re- commission one.
So possible but not easy or common. Probably of most use to an Integrale owner with a poor engine.

Eric 

[droptop]

I have seen an Integrale engine in a beta on the Internet recently but I cannot find it now. It was more common to put Thema engines into Montecarlos back in the day and I know Darren at Monte Servicing and repair is just about to re- commission one.
So possible but not easy or common. Probably of most use to an Integrale owner with a poor engine.

Eric 

I feared as much and at 168 BHP or thereabouts (Plus another seven if you take the balance shaft belt off), it's a bit below par for an Integrale.

I have it up for sale now since early morning to try and get it out of here and recoup some of my hard earned which'll be better spent on my Betas but the chances of finding a home for it here in Ireland are very slim indeed!

[rossocorsa]

I feared as much and at 168 BHP or thereabouts (Plus another seven if you take the balance shaft belt off), it's a bit below par for an Integrale.

I had a dedra turbo back in the 90s and can confirm that they seem to be bigger horses than we get these days! I don't think the engine is much different to a 'grale one most of the power is probably ecu map related.

[droptop]

I feared as much and at 168 BHP or thereabouts (Plus another seven if you take the balance shaft belt off), it's a bit below par for an Integrale.

I had a dedra turbo back in the 90s and can confirm that they seem to be bigger horses than we get these days! I don't think the engine is much different to a 'grale one most of the power is probably ecu map related.

I often wonder if the cars of yesteryear had more poke per pony than today's offerings or are they like the summers of my youth?
Maybe the speedos were hopelessly over optomistic?
Having said that, I recall using PA systems in the 70's when a pair of H&H 2x12 cabs and an MA 100 amp would blow you away, albeit between 100 Hz to 8 KHz but now we use 1000W Dynacord systems to get air moving  in a small venue
Definately better back then

[HFStuart]

I'm inclined to agree with Alan here - I suspect that declared power and certainly torque erred on the side of caution particularly with earlier turbo cars ( unless you had an MG Metro Turbo some of which had zero boost from the factory !) the best known example is the F40 but I'd be willing to bet my Integrale had 215 very fit horses and the GTV V6 I had last year also seemed quicker than it had any right to be with 'only' 220 bhp

Worth noting that this is the case with some modern Diesels  - several 143bhp VAG cars have been measured at over 150bhp before any modifications on fairly reliable rolling roads. Enough to make me think VAGs later increase in the output to an official 150bhp may have involved no changes at all.

[Neil-yaj396]

I'm sure some of this also has to do with the sky high gearing that goes into modern cars, restricting that low grunt even in 2nd/3rd.

There is also engine management to consider, which these days tends to deliver the absolute minimum amount of fuel required. Fiat have squeezed an extra 10/15 mpg out of the FIRE engines, something they never managed with the twin cam and which ultimately killed it off.

[rossocorsa]

Cars are also very porky with pointless extras these days plus they are taller and wider meaning although drag co efficient is good overall drag is higher. My modern(ish) diesel Chrysler delta is near enough same quoted power as a Dedra turbo with similar passenger accommodation but a Dedra would be much much faster for overtaking power, I suspect that as well as the weight issue emission regs mean that full throttle mid range performance is severely compromised. 

[droptop]

Cars are also very porky with pointless extras these days plus they are taller and wider meaning although drag co efficient is good overall drag is higher. My modern(ish) diesel Chrysler delta is near enough same quoted power as a Dedra turbo with similar passenger accommodation but a Dedra would be much much faster for overtaking power, I suspect that as well as the weight issue emission regs mean that full throttle mid range performance is severely compromised. 

I'd have tp agree 1--%
the selling points in modern car commercials are for massage seats, more tech than a High Street electronics retailer and enough driver aids and safety features to ensure you could drop your new car  off a cliff, and not only would you survive, but you could email your friends during the descent, have a relaxing massage in your heated leather seat, enjoy the view through the panoramic windscreen and land safely on the rocks, but the car would then park itself neatly between two basking seals whilst you began streaming music now you're finished updating your status and the car is sending its co-ordinates to Green Flag to come to the rescue.

NOT a fan of luxury toys and tech in modern cars at all.
I want to change Wifey's 14 year old IS200 but I literally can't find anything I'd want in its' place.
Is there a support group for Luddites? (Or a RELIABLE modern RWD car with a "real" handbrake and just a heater and stereo?) I fear not

[WestonE]

Brilliant view of modern cars missing the point and it made me laugh. So now back to the BMWs heated massaging seats??

Eric

[rossocorsa]

Automatic handbrakes the work of the devil! Hate the things

[droptop]

Automatic handbrakes the work of the devil! Hate the things

I hate them but diesel even more so.
Here in our little banana republic a deal was done several years ago by a coalation government consisting of a large group of liars, rogues and scoundrels backed by a small group of ill-informed idealists 9The Green party)
In an effort to reward the Greens, the majority party who really governed, allowed a punitive road tax regime to be imposed on those highly polluting PETROL engines whilst reducing the tax on oil burners to a fraction of the engine capacity based rates prevalant up till then, mid 2008
The result is that it's virtually impossible to buy a modern petrol engined car unless it's a piddly 1.2 or 1.4 litre yoke in a much-too-big-to-be-practical body, resulting in us being almost forced to drive diesel cars unless you wish to pay around €1300 for a 2 litre Insignia SRI or about two grand for a Mitsubishi EVO (these are the rates of annual road tax, not a levy on the purchase price)
You can however, tax a BMW 530D for about €390 P.A. or a 1.9 Audi for a hundred or so less.
Wifey does small mileage and uses around € 30 per week in a six cylinder, two litre petrol car which is pre-greenery and costs €710 P.A. in road tax which is expensive, but with no stupid electronics, D.P.F. or over-stressed turbo to worry about, never mind the dubious quality of some of the diesel sold here at so-called "discount" fuel outlets which ruins injector pumps and injectors, I recon we're into cheap motoring, at least until now when I have to face the prospect of a "modern" car which means sacrificing reliability and commonsense in favour of aluminium suspension components, dozens of quasi-quality sensors and a dedicated ECU to tell us that the taillamp bulb has blown and which must be A) supplied by the dealer as the pin configuration is model-specific,  B) fitted by said dealer as there are unique-pattern star drive bits required and  C) dealer needs to reset the light that told us that the tail light had ceased to work in the first place.

Damn it, I'm giving myself a headache and an urge to find a Datsun 120Y which apparently were somehow not as prone to rust as our beloved Lancias, or so the press would have us believe!!!!!

I'll go now before I start breaking things in a fit of temper

[smithymc]

That really is a punitive system - ours is little better if you want a powerful petrol car though. We have a system biased to carbon and hence diesel, rather missing the point. You don't have to be a boffin to know that you would rather stand behind a petrol than a diesel. My fear is that this is going to be the next asbestos- we knew it was was wrong but we kept doing it.

I feel the pain over petrol cars and the limited choice too. I have had 300,000 happy miles and counting in 5 cylinder turbo Volvos, but that engine too has fallen out of the range. I have some gadgets and to be honest I wouldn't want to be without my heated seats and air-con. I am however with you on the electronic hand-brake, which I don't have, but would if my car was a year newer. How/what/why...? We have two 12 year old petrol cars on the drive with nearly 250,000 miles between them and have no idea what we would replace them with, so we patch them up and they carry on while we look for a lower mileage 'little old lady' one on EBay.

Worlds gone mad.

[Neil-yaj396]

I think the penny has dropped with regard to diesel. I've seen a couple of articles talking along the lines of diesel cars being phased out within ten years and/or hammered with tax.

As to electronic handbrakes, I recon that their attraction to the manufacturers is time save on the production line. The fitter just bolts on the caliper an plugs it into the loom, no fiddly cable to attach, or to feed through from the front by another operator.

[rossocorsa]

I don't think they'll phase out diesel I suspect the current situation is driven by the balance of petrol/diesel production being out of balance once diesel consumption reduces to the level that it is in surplus they'll find a reason why diesel is again the best to help prop up the oil industry. As regards diesel I'm curious what regs are there on oil fired heating which must also pump nasty stuff into the air?

I think the penny has dropped with regard to diesel. I've seen a couple of articles talking along the lines of diesel cars being phased out within ten years and/or hammered with tax.

As to electronic handbrakes, I recon that their attraction to the manufacturers is time save on the production line. The fitter just bolts on the caliper an plugs it into the loom, no fiddly cable to attach, or to feed through from the front by another operator.

[droptop]

I don't think they'll phase out diesel I suspect the current situation is driven by the balance of petrol/diesel production being out of balance once diesel consumption reduces to the level that it is in surplus they'll find a reason why diesel is again the best to help prop up the oil industry. As regards diesel I'm curious what regs are there on oil fired heating which must also pump nasty stuff into the air?

I think the penny has dropped with regard to diesel. I've seen a couple of articles talking along the lines of diesel cars being phased out within ten years and/or hammered with tax.

As to electronic handbrakes, I recon that their attraction to the manufacturers is time save on the production line. The fitter just bolts on the caliper an plugs it into the loom, no fiddly cable to attach, or to feed through from the front by another operator.

Well, here you need a registered installer to fit and set up your new oil boiler, set the emissions and certify it.
No obligation to have it re-certified or serviced though1

Oh, and a "carbon tax" on any carbon-based fuel us plebs need to keep our homes warm but somehow no harmful gases are released during the generation of electricity despite most of our power stations burning locally-sourced peat!

Anyway, I'm done ranting for now and hopefully my Beta will compensate for some of the noxious fumes my diesel van produces