Lancia Beta Forum

This is probably a well worn topic for you guys,but i can't seem to find any info in the search....

Now,in the haynes manual ::) It says to remove the shims by levering down the buckets with a bent screwdriver if you don't have the correct tool. Well,i don't seem to be able even get the edge of a screw driver in there! Is there a special technique that i'm missing?

Also,if you have no valve clearance to start with,how do you work out what shim size you need?

Thanks

You can't use the bent screwdriver or the tool to compress the valve and take the shim out. The idea is that you push the valve in by turning the engine so the camshaft does the work for you. Once the cam lobe has pressed the valve all the way, you insert the bent screwdriver or the tool to hold the valve down and turn the camshaft so it's off the valve before getting the shim out. Having said that, I tried the Haynes bent screwdriver tool suggestion many years ago and gave up as it wouldn't work and I bought the tool. I suggest you do the same and get the correct tool for the job. If you have no gap at all at the moment there must be something seriously wrong (valve seat recession?). Otherwise you'll have to change the shim to one of a known value that gives you a measurable gap and work from there.

Thanks for the quick reply!

When turning the cam off the tappet while it's compressed,is there a danger of piston/valve contact?

Also,do you know of a good source for selling the correct tool?

I think the cam carrier gasket is too thin on mine......the valve seats didn't seem recessed when i lapped them in.

Yes ! Go easy turning the crank and make sure the plugs are out !

The shim tool is available on occasion in the UK but the best bet is the US Fiat specialists. International Autos have them at the moment. http://www.international-auto.com/index.cfm?fa=p&pid=5081 (http://www.international-auto.com/index.cfm?fa=p&pid=5081)

Stuart

OK Cheers.....i think my best bet is to order that and one of their smallest shims,and then take all my measurements from that one shim. That'll be a pain!

I'll take the plugs out and stick a thin piece of dowel or something down the plug hole so i know exactly what that piston is doing.

I used the square 90 degree key that came with my sykes pickavant piston ring compressor and find it works ok. the bent screwdriver as suggested by Haynes needs to be a square section so it can just  rest on the side of the bucket, most scewdrivers are round shaft and completely useless!

I have tried the special tools and found the one I bought from Vickauto in the US whilst looking the part, turned out to be pretty useless!!!

Don't be too worried about turning the cam whilst the valve is fully open, I have 304 degree cams with big overlap and did not have a problem so long as you do not turn it more than 90 degrees. You only need to turn it far enough to get the shim out with a a sharp pointed pick. Make sure the cut out in the bucket is in a place you can get to before rotating the cam.

As for shim thickness, the range is from 3.2 to 4.7 mm I think???  You need a digital caliper or similar to measure the thickness of the shims.

I would take out a few shims and measure them with the caliper to see where you are at. If you are already at 3.2mm you need to add another gasket under the cam box, or grind the top of the valve stems. You can also measure the valve stem height relative to the cam box base flange on the head to see how much the valve sticks up out of the head. I have a measurement somewhere (I'll try to find it).

Do you have no clearance on all valves or just some? The standard setting is around 0.4mm inlet, but you can go as tight as 0.2mm (gives a little more duration and lift....)

Thanks for the info....

I can't get the thinnest feeler of my gauges in between any of the shims....in fact no1 inlet is staying slightly open and i think no4 exhaust is too.So i'd say no,no vlearance at all.

I was actually thinking of buying another set of gaskets and using those too,i just wasn't sure it was a good idea.

If the shims have been inserted the right way round the size should be written on the hidden side.

this chaps has been ok in the past

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TAPPET-SHIM-3-30-4-90-LANCIA-BETA-216825-/130420613268?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1e5daca094 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TAPPET-SHIM-3-30-4-90-LANCIA-BETA-216825-/130420613268?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1e5daca094)

Thanks

I have used 2 base gaskets before after having my valve seats re cut - the valves sat deeper in the head. It worked fine, just make sure you re torque the bolts after leaving overnight as the gaskets settle. The only down side is it will affect your cam timing very slightly, but not enough to cause a drama with std cams.

I stand corrected with the shim range - it is 3.3 to 4.9mm, memory is fading fast these days......

Auto international seem to be offering 2.55 as their smallest size,so i think i'll use one of those as a datum point.

Thanks for your help and advice folks

Just don't use thiner than 3.3 in the build - if you do there's a good chance of the cam hitting the bucket instead of the shim.

Stuart

Ah,that's not so good..... I wonder why are they selling sizes smaller than that then?

that size shim doesn't just fit Fiat engines it fits a few other makes as well

Yeah,33mms are in all sorts....just seems strange they offer them for Fiats. Makes me wonder what sort of outfit they are,if you know what i mean.

Hong Kong

With clearance that tight slacken the other cam box off to avoid clashing the valves. Or remove the cam box concerned and fit 4 x 3.5mm shims with 2 stacked cam box gaskets so you can measure the gap verses known thickness shims. If it is vast try I cam base gasket only and measure again expect the cambox gaskets to settle over night closing the clearances by approx 0.05mm. 0.40mm inlet 0.45mm exhaust.

I suggest a magnet on a stick and a fine flatblade screwdriver to lever the shims out are added to to buying the tappet hold down tool.

The factory normally fitted 4.25 - 4.05 shims. Do not go smaller than 3.30mm or you will scuff the cams.

Enjoy

Eric 

Thanks for the info Eric!

Bugger - I've just bought one of those - are they cr@p, and have I wasted my money? To be honest they look exactly the same as the one that intenational-auto.com are selling:

http://www.international-auto.com/index.cfm?fa=p&pid=5081 (http://www.international-auto.com/index.cfm?fa=p&pid=5081)

Tool looks cheap(ish) but should be OK  :-\  You are not trying to compress the valve using the tool, are you? See http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=908.msg4147#msg4147 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=908.msg4147#msg4147)

Hi Thotos,

I'm not actually trying to adjust the clearances at present; I just bought the tool in preparation for doing it. My concern was that the tool I'd bought wouldn't do the job, and was hoping for some feedback on its suitability.

If the tool looks like this:

(http://www.international-auto.com/images/originals/35801000w11.jpg)

then it should do the job fine  ;)

I have an original FIAT tool bought MANY years ago and it's very similar but with a long 'handle' rather than the short stubby one. I believe that even the later FIAT tools had the short stubby 'handle' to stop people trying to use the tool to lever the valve open.

Hi Thotos,

The tool I've just bought looks exactly like that. I imagine that Vick Autos and International Autos get their tools from the same source, as they look identical.

The one I bought was like that but the metal it was made out if was very soft, they have to locate accurately on the edge of the bucket and it kept "spreading".

Ah - OK. So the only way you know if you've got a tool which works properly is when you come to use it for the first time...

Dear Mangocrazy,
I thought I would dig out the pair of tools that I bought many years ago whilst living in South London. At the time I was messing about with a Fiat 128 3P, and asked at my local dealers about shim adjustment and removal etc. The dealers were "Spur Garage of Wimbledon", (Lancia and Fiat dealers for many years). They recommended buying these two tools that I have pictured here. They were not that expensive but I have been very impressed with them since. They work just as well on twin cam heads, as I have recently adjusted the tappet shims on our 124 Spider.
Anyway if any of you can find these they would be worth getting! The shim depression lever is certainly man enough, but does not damage anything along the way. The tappet bucket spacer is double ended, and you insert it to one side of the bucket. Each end is slightly different, one end is symmetrical about the end view, the other is handed for one side only. I only assume it gives you a choice depending on head?
The FIAT numbers are:

FIAT 1860 443 000 (Top tool)
FIAT 1860 747 000 (bottom tool)

Happy to help!
Chas and Anne. :D

Hi Chas/Anne/Mango + whoever!

Found one here (probably the easy one!)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Tensioner-Tool-FITS-Fiat-1-4-12v-OEM-1860443000-/360344393373?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item53e633169d (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Tensioner-Tool-FITS-Fiat-1-4-12v-OEM-1860443000-/360344393373?pt=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item53e633169d)

The other not so easy I guess, but interesting ref on Guy Croft forum

http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1233 (http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1233)

Peter

My Spider is currently in France, but I do have a spare engine in a lock-up garage. So I took off the cambox top and tried out my newly acquired tool. I'm not sure If I wasn't doing it right or not, but whatever I tried I couldn't get the damn thing to work. I presume that the object of the exercise is to hook the tool under the camshaft on one of the cylinders where the valve/shim isn't under tension; i.e. where the cam lobe is pointing vaguely upwards, and use the tool to press down on the bucket while leaving the shim(s) free to be removed.

Would that be a fair summary of what I should be trying to do? If that's the case, I failed. In most cases I couldn't get the tool in 'square', and when I did appear to do so, I wasn't able to depress the bucket. Was I doing something wrong, or have I bought a duff example of this mythical tool?

Next question - does anyone actually have one of the original Fiat-made tools that looks like the one Vick Autos sell (i.e. not the one that Chas has very kindly photographed), and does it work as intended?

From what I have read, I thought you should start with the valve depressed via the cam, insert the tool, then rotate the cam slightly to take tension off the valve, but not too much, then you can remove/replace the shims?

Not got around to this yet, so only speaking from what I have read, I am sure someone here will give a fuller answer with experience to support it!

Peter

Peterac that sounds logical. I suppose you would rotate the cam as the "lever" to open the gap, then introduce the "gapping prong tool". Then rotate until tension holds the bucket down and keeps the gap open enough to remove said shim.
Worth a go?
Best,
Chas ::)

I have an original Fiat tool which is not as substantial as the one photographed, ( age limits my I.T.knowledge so I can't add photo ). I have always rotated the camshaft to depress bucket,  inserted holding tool,  then rotated a further 180 degrees to allow shim to be removed.  I've also only ever used a cheap electrical screwdriver to remove shim,   filed down and "bent" to fit.  No problem for this  "junior" ! ! !

Thanks for that, new someone would be along with first hand knowledge.

My only concern here would be the 180 degrees as the engine is an interference one as far as piston/valves are concerned and would be cautious how far I rotate the engine with a valve effectively stuck open, but if it works for you, then no harm done.

Peter

Now you put it that way, it all makes perfect sense. Let the cam do the hard work of depressing the valve spring, then use 'the tool' to keep the bucket depressed while removing the shim. Thankyou - as suspected it was operator error...   ::)

Further to this, would anyone happen to know the external diameter of a shim and the internal and external diameters of the bucket? I'm interested to know just what dimensions we're talking about here, and how accurately sized the cam tool has to be. I suspect we're dealing in millimetres or less here...

Hi,
I'm new on here but did own a Beta Spyder some years ago, plus a number of Fiats and later an Alfa Spider. Out of all of them, it's the Beta Spyder that I wish I'd kept.....

Anyway, back to the forum topic - My father has gone into a home at the age of 89, and I've been emptying out his shed and garage. He was a mechanic all of his working life, many years of which were spent at a Fiat agent. As a result, I've found a box of about 50 shims plus a wide array of special Fiat tools - many of which will be suitable for the Beta engine. Do I keep them in case I have another Lancis/Fiat twin cam car or clear some space.....?

Just don't throw them away. I'm sure you would find people would want them.

As Neil says until you decide whether to get another Fiat/Lancia do not throw them away.

Contact the Admins via the link at the top of the page if you wish to dispose of these as a job lot, this will help all forum members potentially benefit from their availability.

Yes, that could be a veritable goldmine of parts and tools. It's excellent news that someone who knew what they were looking at and their potential value was doing the clear-out. I wonder how many other potential treasure troves have simply been skipped?