Lancia Beta Forum

Hello all,

We recently had the engine overhauled and rebuild it completely, Both the head and the engine block has been rebuild by professionals, yet when we first started the car, it was like starting an MK1 Golf diesel.
We have double checked everything, but i doubt this is how the car is supposed to run after a rebuild. We have checked the timing and ignition, and those were all on point. The valve clearing has also been done professionally by a company. The oil pump is working perfectly too.

The engine has now run for 30 seconds, and we dont have the courage to let it run any longer. Does anyone else have this happen to them before when starting a recently rebuild engine? And what can we do to possibly fix this without taking the engine out of the car again? 

-Gerke

I'd be checking valve clearances first. They may need re-shimming to get clearances right.

I think you need to be a bit more specific on what you mean by rebuilt……

First thing did you spin up the oil pump before starting or turning over the engine to confirm oil pressure?

When it was rebuilt did they use engine assembly lube to the crank, rods etc?

Did you check that the engine would turn over easily by hand without plugs installed?

Have you checked the cam belt timing before starting?

Just a few thoughts ….

Peter

Hello Peter,

Yes, we can check all that off. However, there was a point when turning the engine by hand was a bit more difficult. But after two full turns this went well. And on the starter motor without spark plugs it ran like crazy without any camming noise. Maybe the valve clearance could have something in it. But I had this done by a professional........

Is the noise metallic?  Have you checked the exhaust manifold gaskets are correctly fitted?

What do you mean? I just looked at my engine reserve parts, but you can only put the gasket on one way and they are optically the same on both sides.  It is a metallic popping sound, just like a diesel engine.

can you explain that?

Just a wild suggestion, I'm just wondering about cam timing, is there any chance that the cam pulleys are swapped over? This might  make the timing marks out. I'm not sure but I think they will fit either camshaft? I think that exhaust pulley has lip to the front and inlet to the back on early engine???
As I said just a wild guess, I'm no engineer and struggle with stuff.

Aux driveshaft hitting the crank? This can happen if it's not positioned correctly.

Hi Gerke,

I assume you are seeing healthy oil pressure and you've double-checked the camshaft
timing including the aux shaft. I also assume you've re-checked the valve clearances.
With all this established it doesn't
sound like it would damage it to run it again.

I don't think you can post an audio on here, but if you or someone in your house has a
suitable media account, maybe facebook? post a clip of it running and share the link here.

Nigel

That would be the first thing I would be checking.

After this question something started to bother me. Checked this morning but luckily they are placed correctly.

Hello Nigel,

The Aux shaft could be 1 notch off. I'll see if I can change this. If this is not the solution, I will see if I can load a video.  The aux axis is often mentioned here, so let's move on first.

I'll keep you informed.

Hello all,

I recorded a video of the sound coming out of the engine.

Here's the link to the video: https://streamable.com/f66hib

-Gerke

Hi Gerke,
That helps alot.

To me that sounds like valve clearances too wide. However there could be an issue with
oil not reaching the top of the engine. Suggest you remove the 2 cam covers to see if
it's well lubed inside.
Did you check the valve clearances already?

Nigel

I think we can agree that sounds bloody awful. Unless it's something obvious like valve clearances or the aux shaft I think you have to take the head off.

To me it sounds really piston like  maybe even hitting the head but only way to be sure is to strip it.

Hi

I would check the valve clearances regardless of what you have been told, sounds very much like may be too wide to me. As with Nigel also check you are getting plenty of top end lubrication as well. Checking them is a pretty easy thing to do.

Peter

Hello,

Thanks for the replies.
We have removed the cam covers and the oil is very much present at the top of the engine.
As for the valve clearences, we will have to talk to the guy that worked on that for 3 hours and have him work on that part again. he's on vacation this week so we sadly have to wait.
Once thats fixed, we will give you all an update on the engine.

-Gerke

To me it sounds like something simply not set up right have you tried moving the distributor whilst it is running to see if it gets smoother?   

I agree that valve clearances are likely not correctly set and frankly if your mechanic can not do that job I would worry about the rest of the work. Set stone cold spark plugs out by using the tappet depression tool one at a time after using a syringe to remove the excess oil. You obviously measure first with feeler gauges looking for 0.40mm inlet and 0.45mm exhaust clearances. The Haynes Beta Manual tells you how, but you need a decent stock of shims to replace those note the right size. Avoid shims smaller than 3.50mm to prevent cam damage. If you have saved shims from previous engines you probably have lots of 4.20mm! Note always measure the shim thickness with a decent digital vernier or micrometer. to check the actual size and never use shims with heat bluing or surface scuffing.

Good luck.

Eric 

Hi Gerke

I suggest follow Eric’s comments, get yourself some feeler gauges and thereby have another pair of eyes check what is going on with the valves. It is very easy to check now you have the cam box covers off. If they are out then not a trivial job to sort, but at least you know and hence to ask the question why? Again as Eric suggests, I would then be questioning why he has not done the job correctly and hence what else is incorrect?

Peter

Yes, I tried this but there was no immediate change

I took some measurements on the exhaust side. the first cylinder is at 0.50, 2, 3 and 4 have difficulty reaching 0.30........

I will see if I can obtain the special tool somewhere in the Netherlands.
It's a shame about the three hours of work the technician put into this.

-Gerke

Hi

It is not a shame, I would tell him where to get off and not bother using him, never mind asking for my money back…….

Hopefully it has not caused any long term damage. Time to check the inlet side.

You should be able to find the tool easily, here is one advertised for Fiat 124 in Germany (same twin cam engine) but should be widely available at around 50 Euros.

https://shop.wum-autoteile.de/Valve-adjustment-tool-Fiat-124

Peter

Hi,
The man from the garage comes to check the valve clearance in around 1-2 weeks time. He wants a chance to correct his mistake and I think I should give him that chance.

Thank you so far and I will keep you informed.

-Gerke

Hi,

Today I spoke with the man who overhauled the rotating part of the engine, so not the guy who did the valves. He advised to check the oil for aluminum particles in the bearings. The oil was clean and clear so this is not the case. He said that if the valves are too tight you should not hear a ticking sound, only if they are too wide......anyone have experience with this?

Gerke-

Hi

In theory, yes, too wide gap will result in a noise, which is the cam hitting the shim on the steep part of the cam, ie instead of ‘gently’ reducing the gap. However if too small a gap maybe it is falling foul of something else?

Also you only posted the exhaust side, not the inlet side values?

I recently visited a fellow Spider owner who has a long knowledge of these engines and he had a chat many years ago with a Lancia factory mechanic whose comment was that the engines work best if you can hear the tappets, ie gap them on the loose side of the spec. This is purely anecdotal, so make of it what you will…..

Peter

Hi,

I took some more time and now come to the following measurements.

E1 0.20 E2 0.15 E3 0.20 E4 0.20 now the inlet.
I1 0.15 I2 0.25 I3 0.20 I4 0.25

What it should be E 0.45 - 0.51 and the inlet 0.39 - 0.45

there is a difference......

Hi

Yes, not good. Hope you can get it sorted out correctly.

Peter

It seems unlikley that the clearances being 0.2mm too small would produce so much noise but I hope it turns out to be something simple.

Hi,

The mechanic at the garage has now adjusted the valves correctly and unfortunately the noise is still there.
I'm going to take the engine, subframe and all, out again. I don't know anything else either.
According to the mechanic, the noise is louder at the bottom of the engine than at the top.


Gerke-

Hi Gerke,

When you have the sump off check if number 2 conrod is hitting the fuel pump lobe on the Auxillary shaft. The Aux Shaft has to be precisely positioned at TDC or it will hit eventually breaking the conrod and punching a hole in the block. If you no longer use a manual fuel pump it is common to cut off the fuel pump drive lobe and insert a plug into the oilway after careful cleaning. With this done there is no need for precise timing of the Aux Shaft. How to do this is explained in Guy Crofts workshop manuals.

Of course if your mechanic sets the shaft in the right place it does not hit the con rod.
Otherwise look for a loose oil pump or oil drain pipe hitting the crank. After that it becomes poor assembly or incorrect bearing sizes.

Unfortunately I have now seen these things too often from engine builders who should find other work!

Eric
PS with a bore scope you can inspect each cylinder through the spark plug hole looking for strike marks on the pistons from the valves. If standard pistons have been re-used which is rarely a good idea then the wrong size class in the wrong bore will create piston slap which is noisy. OE Size classes are stamped on the crank case sump join for each bore at the factory and detailed in GCs books.   

Hi Eric

Good call on the aux shaft, that may very well explain it.

Peter

Easy to check visually if the pulley is in the right position without taking anything apart

Hi Eric,

This is a photo of the setting before installation. Visually it seems to be going well. I did use a different axle than the one that came out, but visually there was no difference.

Its hard to see from the pic but looks like you could be a tooth out on the aux shaft.  Certainly worth a closer look, dont adjust and run the engine unless you are sure.  It should turn over by hand cleanly with the correct timing of the aux shaft but it might be hard to detect if there is only marginal contact.

The belt is not fitted correctly.
The teeth are not located on the left side of the aux pulley.
If this was run like this then is quite likely the timing moved.
The belt would be also be under tensioned as soon as the teeth slip into place and unlikely to stay correctly timed.

I hope this was adjusted before installation.

Ian

It's also what I suggested two weeks ago :)

What Ian (Squiggly Wiggly) Said I agree with.

Eric

Good spot from the pic. Might need a new tensioner spring too.

hi to all,

This photo is taken before i turned the engine by hand, and all teeth were neatly in place after turning. I'm going to dismantle the engine in the coming weeks and will check the aux shaft first.

I'll keep you informed.

Gerke-

Hello everyone,

We have fixed the engine noise and the engine is running smoothly now! The issue was the headgasket...

The headgasket we ordered was the 80mm version instead of the 84mm version, so the cilinders would dent the metal ring of the gasket that was slightly sticking out.
For comparison, the images attached to this post show the damaged rings, along with the new headgasket that we ordered.

After we (luckily) saw no damage to the engine from the headgasket mistake, we decided to build up the engine again and start it, and it finally ran as it should have from the beginning without that horrible noise.

-Gerke

Glad you've sorted the issue without damage - hands up anyone who suggested that as a possible cause? None of us I guess so another warning to others rebuilding the engines!

Guy

Well done on finding that and I admit that did not enter my mind as a likely cause.

Eric

Good result all round and a relief- well done.

Lovely car.

Mark

I would have been a long while before I guessed that! Delighted that there's no damage and it's an easy fix.

I guarantee it's a mistake you / you builder will never make again!

Pleased you found the cause but I can’t help wondering how close the pistons are to touching the cylinder head?
I assume you are running high compression for performance and have had the block skimmed? I’m not familiar with your engine type but I’m not aware of a standard factory engine where the perimeter of the crown on the pistons protrude above the block deck. (I could be mistaken here).
If so, do you have sufficient piston to head clearance to allow for ‘rod-stretch’ when the engine is at higher revs? Otherwise the pistons next stop will be against the cylinder head which will not be quite so easy to hear when the engine is running at higher revs.

Hope it all works out ok.

Kind regards
Ian

The points Ian is raising are important. If both the block and head have been heavily skimmed a dry build test with plaster cine / play dow on the piston edges and in the valve cutouts is needed. GC's books provide minimum clearances and explain how you test. GC dealt in race engines and higher revs and you probably run to 6500 RPM maximum. However I think you should check this if not already done so.

If the clearances are too close you can use Cometic MLS gaskets in a thicker stack or you take the chance and control the revs.

Eric   

Hello,

Thanks for all the comments and concerns, as for the engine, we will do a dry build test later this year and to see if all is within the correct measurements.
However, the engine itself is not built for racing purposes, nor will we use it for that, so it shouldnt see lots of high revs but again, we will get it tested to ensure its fully reliable.

-Gerke