Lancia Beta Forum

The silver 2000 Coupe I acquired back in Sep 20 hasn't been very far sadly. The garage completed much work, including fuel tank cleaning with an acid solution. Carb was refurb'd as far as posdible. Apparent wear in the butterfly spindle remains unresolved.  Since back with me after only approx 70 miles of local driving the fuel filter was almost entirely blocked with grey/brown sludge. Now replaced filter. The car  warms up to temp, auto-choke off, then stalls but restarts  easily. This occurs whilst standing and when running, the stall happens at low revs when taking a junction at low speeds. Perhaps incorrect mixture? Am I looking at further tank investigation? Perhaps I should just run the car up and see what more there is to come through? On a run before Christmas the poor thing overheated. Boiling over waiting at temp traffic lights. Transpired it was a poor electrical connection to the fan thermostat... Fan now cuts in correctly. I would appreciate any thoughts and advice, even if it's just to stop worrying and be patient... Jono

Hi

The stall may very well be due to air leak at the spindle weakening the mixture at idle. Some brake cleaner or similar sprayed near the spindle at idle will confirm an issue if the revs rise. I guess t raking the idle screw is your only hope of that is the case.


Peter

Hi Jono

I would have doubts about the tank clean if I got a rapidly clogged filter. However it may be residue from the clean and the next filter removes any remaining crud so try running the car taking a new filter with you and check frequently.
If it fills with Crud quickly they simply have not cleaned the tank properly.

I would expect to change the filter again in 500 miles anyway to get a clean system.

Eric

I had literally years of fueling problems with my car when I bought it after it had been little used for a long time. This is my go to thread on the subject;

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=649.0 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=649.0)

Someone on the LMC forum had similar issues with a Fulvia. One suggestion was to keep some cheap in-line fuel filters in the car and change them as they become clogged. Eventually all the muck is intercepted and uninterrupted motoring can resume.

I saw a thread this week from Darren Cooksey about having new Monte tanks made up
and wondered whether anyone had had this done for their Coupe/HPE etc.

This would be the ultimate answer to such issues.

Nigel

Hi Nigel

I agree and what Darren is having made is important to this. The tanks he is having made in Aluminum have built in Swirl pots and full size return pipes and breathers. This makes fitting Fuel Injection much easier by just installing a high pressure pump with pre filter outside the tank. It will also work for carb cars by simply using a low pressure pump and regulator. Beta VX & IE tanks are a nightmare to clean and coat internally because they have built in swirl pots. But aluminum is not prone to rusting in the same way. It is Alloy Racing Fabrications making the Monte Tanks, but someone has to put the effort into providing the right samples including the variation between Coupe & HPE tanks.

For my build I found probably the last NOS carb tank in Europe. Before cutting it open, removing any existing baffles & installing a Phantom in tank fuel injection pump and swirl pot. It might have been easier and possibly cheaper to have got a new alloy tank made with built in swirl pot, large bore outlet (VX & IE size) and the right breather and filler neck return.

Maybe Darren could be persuade if we ask nicely to get some made for Beta Coupe/HPE.

Eric   

Eric, well said. Compatibility will be the key.

Ideally it would be preferable to have one tank spec that will be
a direct replacement albeit with slight fitting mods.

So is the Coupe tank dimensionally the same as the HPE.......and could it be so, if not.
Are the 4 mounting points in the same position, and if not, are they close enough to just require drilling the lugs.
Is the filler spigot the same diameter on all variants, and could it be in the same position for all. { I know that some variants
have 6-8 inches of steel neck. For example, mine doesn't]
For the rest, an IE spec [fuel sender, breather, outlet] can be the same.

Too many questions....help!

Many thanks to all for pointing me in certain directions on carbs and fuelling issues generally. The 'link' was uesful. Was able to get the car out of it's lockup today in fine weather. Start-up was all good, and once warm it idled correctly. New filter showing clear fuel, no sludge so far... Had a thorough check over exhaust security, when I noticed petrol dripping and pooling below tank! Wetting the area where the rear transverse links meet and fix. Not great when you entrust your car to a garage and it's returned with fresh faults, all relating to the areas that were supposedly made good... Thank goodness for free breakdown and recovery with my Nationwide bank account is really all I can say. Jono

Re the leak it will be worth checking the pipe connections under the plastic cover in the boot floor. If the flexible pipe there hasn't been replaced when the tank was cleaned it may have hardened and not sealed back on properly when refitted. Also the clip may not have been fully tightened.

Neil, ah ha, was just consulting Haynes to see if access can be gained from the boot?! I have a 77 model so hopefully I have access, it just says 'early models it is not possible...'. Am still new to the car, and my lockup is 13 miles away from homebase, will set to this investigation early next week. Thankfully I have a helpful, local mechanic if I get stuck. No more so-called specialist classic car workshops, am learning lessons...  J

Hi Jono

You should also look to see what spec flexible fuel lines you have. The current E5 fuel has ethanol in it which can quickly render old fuel lines porous. Use the correct ethanol resistant pipe for peace of mind. With a carb car you have two at the tank and three in the engine bay.

Peter

The fuel tank is coming out of my Beta today.  There is an occasional interruption to power that might be attributable to clag in the tank.

BTW, the car now dines exclusively on Esso Supreme 99+.  No Ethanol.

Jono, don't let your experience with the 'Specialist' outfit put you off, I had a similar one when I first bought mine. It can be disheartening, but don't let it dissolve any enthusiasm you have for your car. It's an unfortunate part of the Journey, It's good if you can find someone who appreciates your car as you do and enjoys working on it. That's a Specialist to me. I hope you get your fueling issues sorted.     

All the Best, Andrew

Many thanks Andrew for your supportive words. It can feel mighty lonely. Compounded when certain people say to you "what made you buy one of those cars? They were always rubbish back in the day...!" I will get there, this forum is psychologically, and practically very helpful. Gerard's fuel tank images out of situ were particularly pertinent. Saturday I shall be attempting to access as many jubilee clips as I can without removing the tank... Jono

Hi

Do not get despondent. Yes it can be frustrating and take loads of time, but any old car will do that. As to why, pretty simple answer is they are interesting cars in their time and not many around which compounds that.

Peter

Yes, hang on in there.   Betas are very rewarding to drive, and are much more refined and efficient than rival cars from, for example, BL, Ford, and Fiat (and I say that as a BL and Fiat fan).  Indeed, BL had nothing to match a Beta Coupe or Spider - fast, handly, refined, well equipped.   My Fiat from 1973 is really a 1960s sports car with a 1970s make over, and although it has disc brakes and a five speed gearbox it also it has a steering box and a live rear axle, whereas the Beta is a 1970s car.  Although modern cars (I mean cars post around 1999) are boring, in a classic car it can be a virtue that the car was advanced and modern in its time.

As Peter says, don't be despondent. Those who say "they were rubbish back in the day" are narrow minded, ignorant and not worthy of your attention. You will meet plenty of people who say " wow, my brother / father / uncle had one of those and it was fantastic". The challenges and frustrations are what provide the satisfaction of classic car ownership when you overcome them.

Well said Frank.
( thumbs up here )

A.

Garage forecourt idiots are a hazard that comes with owning any classic car.   They are all "experts" based on watching Clarkson, and if you drive an old Italian or BL car you get all the nonsense.  Some of it is based on envy.

Feeling positive and proactive today. Crawled under car whilst engine running. Pinpointed fuel loss to the place just behind and above rear crossmember. Appears to be simply leaching from the flexible hoses themselves, as opposed to the point where they join the metal lines. The flexi lines have the original fabric braiding. All looked good from the boot inspection place that allows access to sender. No fuel loss there. All my under bonnet lines are good and modern. Oh to have a shiny four-post inspection ramp! Book it in to my local guy on Monday...

Hi

Typical of old rubber pipes when using new petrol with ethanol. Make sure your guy uses ethanol tolerant pipes or you will have to replace them again sooner rather than later and you run the risk of fire of course. Also make sure they are a named brand, rather than just some generic ones. There are tales of older pipes being re labelled....

Peter

Normally ethanol tolerant pipes these days are the spec for fuel injection petrol pipes. With good quality stainless clips this should be fit and forget.

Eric

Current advice seems to be to stick to the premium fuels that are maximum E5, should be marked at the pumps. Even this level of Ethanol can be bad for pipes and seals but the new "normal" price fuels will soon all be E10 which is a real killer of rubber pipes. Try to make sure you're buying new fuel lines from reputable sources or getting your local garage to source/fit. They won't want you coming back with a complaint and repeat for free job!

If you've got braided hoses anywhere in your fuel lines I'd also recommend ditching them as soon as possible because you can't see the state of the underlying pipe and, when it does break down, the resultant leak won't be a steady stream but more of a sprayed cloud caused by it being dispersed through the steel braid. And that vaporises quicker and is a lot more explosive. I've had a very lucky escape with the Stratos replica a few years ago....

Guy

Big filter!


(https://i.ibb.co/Lpcw1MM/filter.png) (https://ibb.co/KyfZWYY)

Gerard,

Are you putting that on your beta ? and if so whereabouts ? ( assuming that you already have the Main filter )


Thanks,


A. 

Yes, in between the radiator and the carb, in place of the current filter.  I have had some problems with fuel contamination recently, but hope these problems will be eliminated soon.

Andrew,
I'm open to correction, but I don't think plastic filters are suitable
for injected cars, as the fuel pressure is a bit too high for them.

I found a metal filter around the same size from my local motor factor,
which would be better for your car.

Regards
Nigel

Hi Nigel

You are absolutely correct carb lines run at 3- 6 PSI whilst FI runs at 3- 7 BAR a huge difference. Filters breaking under the pressure is a messy explosion in action so not recommended.

FI is no place for weak hose and low quality hose clamps. This is why the OE lines are crimped on for IEs. You can buy double ear O Clamps and top quality stainless hose clamps from Car Builder solutions.

 https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/hoses-and-clips-hose-clips (https://www.carbuilder.com/uk/hoses-and-clips-hose-clips)

Fuel Pumps FI Filters, regulators etc

   https://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/malpassi-sytec-fuel-filters-swirl-pots-water-separators/sytec-motorsport-fuel-filters-out-of-tank/ (https://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/malpassi-sytec-fuel-filters-swirl-pots-water-separators/sytec-motorsport-fuel-filters-out-of-tank/)

Eric

Hey thanks Nigel, Eric,

Good you caught me before I charged off and got one. Mine 'is' Injected.

A decent amount of gunk I believe has been collected by the first new 'standard' filter I fitted at the rear last year,
..it ran much better. I'm going to replace this again as a matter of course, I was keen to fit an extra transparent one for the obvious reason that I can 'see' what it's collecting, but also because of ease of access, changing it out etc. If it messes with the regulation of fuel flow I mightn't bother.

I'm looking forward to getting out on the road here soon ( as soon as they stop salting them )

Thanks again for your help,

Andrew.

     

   

My crud filled filter...

Wow. That is a lot of crud for fuel lines from a tank that was meant to have been cleaned. That is all the evidence necessary that the job was not done properly.

I now suspect that crud in the tank might be the number one source of Beta breakdowns. I know for IEs & VX the lack of a filter before the injection pump is just asking for a ride with the big yellow taxi (AA low loader) and a new FI pump.

BTW the FI pump can be deleted from the VX along with a lot of complex valves and return plumbing by using a facet silvertop competition and a filter king regulator.

Eric

Wow! WHAT is that inside there! ..did you take a closer look ? ( curious )

Yes believe you're right Eric, Happiness is a clean tank ..oh and lines. :)


A.

I have looked closer under bright light and magnification... Now after two weeks off the engine all petrol has evaporated. The material is a really fine granular sand-like stuff, just like mud from an estuary. Crazy. The fresh filter I fitted is made by NAPA. Twice the size, drum like in shape, similar to the one earlier in this thread. Autolec have surprised me with several, specific aftermarket Beta spares on their shelf in Newhaven. Handily only three miles from my home. Beta booked in for it's new fuel lines on Wednesday. Unsurprisingly, I won't be returning to the people who 'cleaned' my tank. All part of the journey... Jono

Not knowing the back-story - that fine granular stuff couldn't be sand used for blasting your tank, could it?

Well they told me that they ordered an acid solution and washed the tank out that way. A one-use product that is specifically designed to clean tanks without without damaging steel. Apparently it can reveal pinholes if corrosion has been eating away inside. No sand blasting took place that I know of...