Lancia Beta Forum

My Spider has been resident in France since about 2008, and in the last couple of months I finally managed to get it registered in France as a 'Vehicule de Collection'. With that done, I was intending to bring it back to the UK to do a full refurb of engine, suspension, bodywork etc. and flew down last week with the intention of driving it back.

However, the car had other ideas...

The day before we were due to start the drive back (last Thursday) we drove about 25-30kms away for a spot of retail therapy. On the way back a very unpleasant screeching/graunching noise started emanating from the offside under-bonnet area. I suspected something fanbelt-related and limped back to our village and the local garagiste. Had I known then what I know now, I'd have simply parked the car in my garage and booked some flights back to the UK.

The garagiste appeared to agree that the problem was with the fanbelt, but said he couldn't order one until the following morning. When the fanbelt arrived and he came to fit it, he quickly discovered that the water pump had given up the ghost and was the root problem. He was also not happy with the state of the cambelt and idler bearing, in spite of these having been replaced in the last 1000 miles. By now it was Monday afternoon (things move awful slow in rural France) and the parts wouldn't arrive until the following afternoon.

When he got round to fitting the parts (Wed morning) reassembly went OK and he started the engine, and it idled fine for several minutes (or so he said), right until the time it locked up. I wasn't present at this time, so can only take his word for it. An hour or so later, after trying to find the reason for the lock-up, I called a halt to proceedings and told him to step away from the tools (politely, of course). My neighbour is currently looking after getting the car removed from the garagiste's premises and reinstalled in my lock-up garage, while we flew back to the UK.

I'm now trying to figure out what the best course of action is. I also have a lock-up garage in the UK that has two Beta motors in it and am tentatively thinking of combining the best bits of both to take down to France next year in my van as a drop-in replacement for the problematic unit. I must admit I'm more than a little concerned as to what damage has been done to the original engine, especially as I was preparing to strip it and then hand it over to GC for a full refurb and uprate. If it could have lasted another 1000 miles then it would have been a very different story.

Any comments/suggestions very welcome...

I hope not but sounds to me suspiciously like a mistimed aux drive in which case the engine will probably be toast, hopefully not though

Yes, that was in my thoughts as well. What components get trashed if that is the case? My worst fear is damage to the crank and/or block. Anything else (within reason) can be worked around. The motor was due to have a rebore, new pistons/rings, new rods and GC's cranks mods done to it (among other things).

Could be a hole in the block

Would that show itself as an external hole, or is it more likely to be internal?

Never seen it myself so not  sure but someone else will no doubt clarify

If the aux shaft is mis aligned then it
will knock against no. 1 rod, most
likely it will have damaged the shells.
Depends on how long it was run for.

number two rod surely?

I'm relying on a) what the garagiste said and b) my translation of his French. He implied that the engine had been running for a while (minutes rather than seconds) when it locked up, but as I wasn't there to verify that I can't be sure. I arrived not long after the engine locked up, as far as I could determine. What I was sure of is that the engine could not be turned through more than a few degrees by a spanner on the crank nut after the incident. After a few tries I told him to give up and not try any further (and make a bad situation worse).

If the only possible damage would be to the bearing shells then I'm slightly relieved. I'm intending to completely overhaul the motor and new rods and shells will be fitted as part of that. My big concern is the crank itself and the block. If both those are unscathed then I shall breathe a big sigh of relief, but obviously I won't know for sure until the motor is fully stripped.

I'd have thought that if the auxiliary shaft was misaligned, then interference would occur pretty well as soon as the engine was started, wouldn't it?

you would probably hear it knocking it is this impact that can cause damage, probably depends on the relative positions. anyway when its rebuilt make sure you have the aux drive cut and plugged and use an electric  pump instead

Yes, the ironic thing is that I've already converted to an electric fuel pump and was intending to get this lobe cut off when the engine was stripped. My concerns now are what damage (if any) is likely to have been done to block and crank.

And I'm not going to know until the engine is removed from the car (currently in France) and brought back to the UK. At present I'm not planning to visit the house until April 2016 at the earliest, although that may well change...

Alan you're most likely correct
I'm old so I'm excused.

I have got to the stage where I forget the names of things quite regularly so age is catching me up!

I have experienced quite similar situation, however my engine did not lock up. When I was assembling the engine I wrongly set the markings on the auxiliary shaft pulley, lined it not with tensioner spring bolt but with notch on the engine block, which is turned about 120degrees anticlockwise - I have no idea what this mark is for. However before starting the engine I turned the crank by hand few revolutions, and there were no colissions. After starting the engine a noisy knocking was audible, and after a while I stopped it. After a thorough investigation I realized the fatal mistake. Correct setting solve the problem. I thought at that time with no consequences. Unfortunately after about 2000km I started observing a drop in oil pressure. This thread I think answered my question, as collision of the connecting rod (bolt?) with auxiliary shaft lobe can be linked with oil pressure drop. However, apart from low oil pressure there are no other signs. What can I expect that is damaged? Conrod, bolt, shell? Is it possible to replace the connecting rod or the shell with the engine in situ?

Lukas

Stop driving the car until you have replaced Number 2 conrod with a replacement of known history. You would change the big ends and mains whilst doing this. The problem is raising the engine enough to remove the sump with the engine in place but it can be done. The head has to come off to remove the piston from the top on number 2 cylinder.

There are unfortunately hundreds of cases of number 2 conrod failing under load after being tapped by the Aux DS lobe. It snaps and punches a big hole in the block ruining your day. Many people use Guy Croft's modification of removing the lobe and using and electric fuel pump. It is annoying that Lancia left the lobe in place on IE VX and S1 Monte's that all had electric fuel pumps.

Good luck and sorry for the bad news.

Eric   

Thanks Eric for your reply. It seems to be not the smooth operationthough...
Should I replace all the shells (big-ends and main?, or just the no.2 big-end? As I said, the engine turns with a full clearance when rotating by hand...Probably it was the centrifugal force that makes the parts touching...
I will try to remove the sump first and have a look how it does look inside.

Lukas

The bearings come in sets and it is not too hard to change them in situ and a good idea whilst you are there. But check number 2 big end first because if the crank is heavily scored hard decisions have to be made about stripping the engine for a full re-build. Generally replacing the bearings carefully and correctly on a sound engine before extreme wear develops improves oil pressure and engine life. You can buy Plasti gauge kits to measure the bearing clearances if you want to be sure and in a full re-build you would measure and check against the allowed sizes across all the bearings bores etc. I would also check and measure the clearances on the oil pump as a matter of course in your situation.

I hope it helps

Eric   

thanks Eric again for your wise advices.
I just found a picture of the engine showing the actual timing setting from the time before firing. Actually the misalignment was not so substantial, something about 30deg...
Anyway, it is my fault, because I set the aux pulley marking not to the spring bolt but to spring stopper bolt.
It is really hard to believe, why this horrible lobe is so sensitive to correct position. Does anyone know what is its posinion when the markings are set correctly? Is it in line with aux pulley position line?
Maybe it was not hitting, but just touching ;)
Unfortunatelly I will have a chance to drop down the sump not before spring - too small garage.
cheers

Back at the original question and thinking about whether the engine had run for minutes or seconds, do you have any recollection of how warm it was and would that help?
I accept this is possibly lost in the mists of time.

On another tack, if a complete engine rebuild is needed would it make sense to take one of your UK spare engines to GC then only have to transport an engine one way to France?

I wasn't present when the engine was run up prior to lock-up, but the engine had stood for several days, so would not have been even vaguely warm. The ambient temps were around 20 deg C, but I doubt that is the question you were asking.

I overwhelmingly want to use the original engine for the GC refurb, as it only has around 55k miles on it and I've owned it since 1987 and know its history. It's also the engine number that is on the UK log book and the French 'certificat d'immatriculation'. Replacing the original engine with a 'spare' and bringing the original back to the UK and getting it refurbished also means that I have the use of the car in the mean time and can drive it to the bodyshop (for example). One of the two spare engines I have is seized and probably scrap, the other is of unknown provenance.

Lukas, very sorry to hear of your mishap. I hope it works out OK for you. That fuel pump lobe has a lot to answer for...

That all makes sense. Good luck.

Resurrection of old thread alert... but for a good reason...

If you've read this far (and various other threads) you'll know that I've been laboriously putting together a hybrid 2000 i.e./carb engine to replace the one that was wrecked by an incompetent mechanic in France. The original engine was removed from the car in April 2016 and brought back to the UK for repair/renovation. On the same trip I took down a 2000 i.e. engine converted to run with carburettor, and the process of swapping them over started. We visited the house (and the car...) again in July 2016 and by the time we left I'd managed to get the replacement engine bolted into the chassis, but with all the refitting of drive shafts, exhaust, cooling system etc. still to do.

I went back down again in Oct/Nov 2016 (observing the 1st anniversary of the calamity) and by the time I left had the engine fully plumbed in with the exception of some minor exhaust work. I just simply ran out of time (a common refrain).

I'm back down at the house again now, and am pleased to report that the exhaust is fully fitted, and the engine is definitely a runner!

I'd gone through all the usual pre-checks (spinning the engine over without plugs, refitting plugs & leads and priming the pump with the rubber fuel bulb) and was ready to try it out on the starter. However I had somehow omitted to notice that the throttle linkage was still tucked away in the scuttle instead of connected to the cambox and carb. Oh how we laughed...

With that resolved I gave it another turn of the key, more in hope than expectation I have to say, and blow me if it didn't start with the first turn of the key! I nearly crapped myself with surprise... I really wasn't expecting that, as I'd only set the ignition timing 'by eye' and was fully expecting to have to do battle with that before it would run.

So only about 18 months after the engine locked up at the hands of the French garage owner, it's now a runner again. I've still got plenty of things to check out and fix, but at least I was able to take it for a short bimble around the village.

Onwards and upwards...

Good news. It really does make you jump when an engine starts like that- happened to me, exactly like you with distributor thrown on and not really set.

Hope the good luck continues.

Mark

Great news well done!

That is great news, fingers crossed it does not have any significant setbacks.

I am looking forward to the day when I can give mine a go at starting.....

Peter

Yes, it was all the better because it was so unexpected...! I was thinking of a million and one things that could stop it starting, but thankfully none of them materialised. Ironically, after struggling with inadequate garage lighting while re-fitting the engine, today I fitted a new LED light fitting which bathes the area in bright light. Ho hum.

Next step is to get the engine fully warmed up and change the oil and filter. Hopefully I can do this before returning to the UK next weekend.

And over a year before another update... At long last I've been able to get the car warmed up properly and on a set of ramps so I can get at the sump and oil filter with (comparative) ease. Before I ran the motor I added some Comma engine flush, as I knew the oil in the sump was pretty manky . I was pleasantly surprised when it came to undoing the original sump plug - it didn't require any special degree of violence to remove, just a short length of pipe over a sliding bar.

But the oil that came out was absolutely disgusting - filthy black, thick and smelly. Heaven knows what state the engine is in, but it only needs to get the car back to the UK once the original engine is complete and ready to put back in. I didn't hear any rattles previously, but that may be due to the thickness of the oil. It's had 5 litres of  fresh15w40 semi-synthetic, so will be interesting when it comes to starting it up.

The reason I didn't start it up is because it needs to stay on the ramp. Just after I'd got the car reversed back into the garage and was ready to drive it up the ramps. the gear lever went all light and imprecise and gear selection became impossible. Thankfully it was in first gear, otherwise I'd never have got it up the ramps. What part of the gear linkage is likely to have broken or come loose? I'm sure all will become apparent when I get underneath, but it's certainly something I could have done without. At least it didn't happen when I was driving around the French countryside warming the motor up...

Hi

Sounds like it may be the short connecting rods on the linkage if you still have the original ones. The plastic on the ball joints tend to break up, the standard fix is to replace with a kit from the US or Mark has them. They are located next to the bulkhead on the engine side where the gear lever comes through the bulkhead.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for that - it does sound like the culprit, I agree. I'm pretty sure I have the revised linkage parts stashed away somewhere (in the UK, doubtless) so will need to dig them out and take them with me next time I visit. At least the car is up on ramps so I should have enough room to do the job...