Lancia Beta Forum

I'm going to be tackling this very soon, so any hints or tips how to go about it?
Have seen some video's involving a breaker bar and using the starter motor, but i'm not sure I fancy that!

It's not usually a major problem. Unstake it and lock the engine  - either in high gear and on the brakes or take the shield off the back of the flywheel (by the sump) and lock with a big screwdriver. The nut should then come off with a breaker bar - a 3/4" one makes life easier. If you have an impact wrench you might not even need to lock the engine.

Air or electric ratchet by far the easiest way, both cheap ish tools these days

Do not forget that the bolt has a left-handed thread  8)

Some cranks have a nut not a bolt and as far as I recall are normal threads

I've got a battery type impact gun so i'll give that a try first. Mine appears to be of a nut type rather than bolt. Any confirmation whether it is a left-handed threaded or not? I certainly don't want to be tightening it up anymore than it already is. :o

Pretty sure that it's normal, it will be proper FT though but some of those electric impact wotsits are surprisingly good these days.

If it's a nut it's a normal thread.

It was indeed normal thread, had to lock the ring gear in the end and bust a gut with a breaker bar, but it's off! Thanks guys :)

Another worthwhile tip for removal of this bloody big nut is to give it some serious heat before doing anything. These nuts are often Loctited on, and you will need to get it proper hot to break the Loctite gorilla grip. I used two Rothenberger type propane plumbing torches (because I happened to have two), and gave the nut some serious grief for about five minutes. I only stopped because the cam belt (due to be replaced anyway) started smoking quite badly. I left it at that, went away and did some other jobs for half an hour or so until it had completely cooled down and it undid with only moderate persuasion from a breaker bar and 38mm socket.

"I certainly don't want to be tightening it up anymore than it already is"

Of course tightening a stuck nut or bolt is a recognised way of breaking its' grip. If it moves at all then it has started to free off and will be easier to undo. If it doesn't move then nothing is lost.

Pardon my ignorance, but I presume you don't need to split the engine and gearbox to do this? And is the shield you mention on the top, bottom or side of the engine? I've got a 2 litre engine on the garage floor that I need to change the cam belt on (among other things) and removing that BF nut is currently at the top of my 'to do' list. The one on the seized engine came off without to much ado (mainly because the engine was seized), but this one turns over quite freely...

The shield is the one that covers the lower half of the flywheel  - where the bellhousing is next to the sump. Removing it just means you can get to the flywheel teeth to lock the engine. You don't have to split engine and gearbox!

It's only held on by 4 or 5 m6 bolts.

Thanks Stuart  ;D

Another request for advice, I'm afraid... Having had some well-documented fun with the clutch, I'm now finding it impossible to get the crank pulley nut off the engine I'm intending to take to France. I followed the advice in the Haynes manual and used an M8 bolt screwed into one of the clutch mounting threads in the flywheel, bearing against the block to lock the flywheel, but as soon as substantial force was applied to undo the crank pulley nut, the bolt just bent like cheese. In fairness, it's not what an M8 bolt was designed to do...

So how does one lock the flywheel with the clutch and bell housing off? Or is it best to reassemble the engine and gearbox first? I've seen suggestions to use a big screwdriver or lock the ring gear but I'm not entirely sure how to do that. I also notice Stuart's suggestion to use the flywheel teeth to lock the engine - how is this done?

I made a plate with  two holes  which line up with the tappings in the front facing side of the flywheel,  I think they are 10mm,  Two more large holes allow you to fix the plate to the bell housing.  All a  bit "heathrobbinson"  but has worked every time I needed to lock the engine. Positioning the holes can be difficult but if you don't drill the holes too big, you can slot them and put washers on the holding studs.  Can e-mail a photograph if it's any help.

Hi Ammy, that would be really helpful; I'm having a bit of a problem visualising your idea. My email address is grahamstewart888@yahoo.co.uk. Thanks!

Use a good quality air impact gun and it'll come off in seconds trying to lock the flywheel is a pain. An electric impact gun probably won't be good enough incidentally.

My Milwaukee cordless Impact gun does this easily and has been a great investment

A pound shop item will not do the job of course.

Cheers

Eric

As above some of the later engines have a reverse thread and a different nut. I take it it's not one of these?

Vx has normal thread not sure about ie

I'll certainly give the nut a go with an air gun, although I suspect mine (being cheap) might be a bit lacking in torque. It certainly struggled (i.e. didn't) remove the nut from my old seized engine. Probably the excuse I need to buy a decent one....

The crank nut on my ie motor is definitely a nut (not a bolt) and looks identical to the one on the carb (seized) engine. Is there any way of telling if the nut is a LH thread? The nightmare scenario would be stripping the crank thread by tightening rather than loosening the nut.

I've already given the nut plenty of heat courtesy of two MAPP gas torches used in tandem.

Is it not possible to see the direction of the thread at the end of the crank to work out which way it goes?

Peter

I think it will be conventional don't worry you'll not strip the thread. I use a small Ingersoll rand air impact really good and not overly expensive, before that I had a misc Chinese one and it was hopeless

This one

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/am-en/products/tools/impactools/maintenance-automotive-impactools/1-2-drive/236 (http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/am-en/products/tools/impactools/maintenance-automotive-impactools/1-2-drive/236)

The nut is flush with the end of the thread, so not really possible. It's one of the double pulleys with the extra drive for the power steering pump, if that makes any difference.

Hi rossocorsa, I've just ordered an air gun with a reverse Nm rating of 1350, so if that doesn't get it off, I'm really in trouble... :)

Beware, i sheared the head off a vx crankshaft BOLT with a nut gun due to it being a left hand thread.

So are we saying that if the crank pulley is held on with a nut, that the thread is a 'normal' RH thread, but if the crank pulley is held on with a bolt, that the thread is LH thread? From what's been said so far, that's how it appears.

Correct.

I had two engines with a bolt tightened crank pulley and both where LHT.
Early DOHC engines have nuts, then FIAT switched to bolts. I cannot see their motivation why they came to nuts in the last series?

Perhaps because too many people were shearing off the LHT bolts?   ???

But as long as it's clear that Nut = RH thread and Bolt = LH thread then it's a minor annoyance at most.

Probably, but using of LHT had also an advantage - selftightening effect.

Yes, I agree. I can certainly understand the benefits of that from an engineering point of view. But to change specification in the middle of a production run, and then to change back again later on, is really not helpful.

But quintessentially Italian...  ;D

When you refer to RH/LH you mean the direction of tightening? I find this a bit confusing, standard/reverse is clearer, ie you always untighten a standard thread by turning it anti-clockwise, or to the left.

yes, at least in my mother tongue we refer to such types of bolts in that way :) I am not sure, but according to DIN standard LH thread bolts should be marked with a letter L on their heads.

Yes, sorry, that was what I meant. A figure of speech I've always used, I guess. And agree that clockwise or anti-clockwise would be a more accurate way of describing it.

So -

Clockwise to tighten = 'standard' and the direction of rotation when a nut is used to secure the crank pulley.
Anti-clockwise to tighten = 'reverse' and the direction of rotation when a bolt is used to secure the crank pulley.

Well, I bought a brand new high spec air gun (a KS Tools 515.1210 MONSTER-Impact wrench) with 1650Nm of torque in the reverse direction, and that crank pulley nut still wouldn't budge. I think the problem was that the compressor couldn't maintain it's peak output for long enough. It's an electric driven motor from Metabo's basic line, 50 litre tank.

The problem is that there is no electricity at my lockup garage, and I had to run the compressor and fill the tank at home, then wheel the compressor to the garage and use the air stored in the tank to run the air gun. As the pressure decreased, so did the power of the air gun. Had it been run off a permanent supply and I could have just sat there hammering away, I think the result might have been different.

The only option I can see now is to winch the engine into the van and take it to my local garage. I've just about had enough...

Your impact wrench is probably too large for the compressor better to have a lower rated one that needs less cfm

Graham

This is too late now you have bought a tool but it might help others. I use this cordless tool from Milwaukee. It delivers 610Nm of torque and does not need mains power or a compressor. I also own a BIG compressor driven tool and the Milwaukee is still better and does not need a 3HP compressor to drive it. It states the most powerful 18V cordless impact wrench on the market.

HD18HIWF-402 M18 Heavy Duty Cordless Friction Ring Impact Wrench - See more at: http://www.milwaukeepowertools.co.uk/hd18hiwf-402-m18-heavy-duty-cordless-friction-ring-impact-wrench#sthash.bKPO9pcU.dpuf (http://www.milwaukeepowertools.co.uk/hd18hiwf-402-m18-heavy-duty-cordless-friction-ring-impact-wrench#sthash.bKPO9pcU.dpuf)

 http://www.milwaukeepowertools.co.uk/hd18hiwf-402-m18-heavy-duty-cordless-friction-ring-impact-wrench (http://www.milwaukeepowertools.co.uk/hd18hiwf-402-m18-heavy-duty-cordless-friction-ring-impact-wrench)

Sorry I did not provide this earlier.

Eric

My Ingersoll rand air impact does a good job, takes crank nuts off no problem at all it's rated at 610nm and I use it with a cheap and now quite old nettos compressor. I had a misc Chinese impact gun before and it was useless at first I blamed the compressor but the gun was the issue.

Thanks for the tip off Eric, I've just bought one.

Running a compressor isn't really an option for me in a densly overlooked residential area.

Going for £299 here:
https://powertoolsdirect.oxatis.com/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=12162234 (https://powertoolsdirect.oxatis.com/PBSCProduct.asp?ItmID=12162234)

Andy

Thanks for all the comments; much appreciated. I must admit I got severe tool envy seeing Eric's Milwaukee impact wrench - that really looks a beast. Anyway after mulling it over yesterday evening I decided to winch the engine into the van and bring it back to Sheffield. At my lockup garage there is no power, and no realistic means of getting any, short of hiring a generator.

This means that I can now run an extension cable from the house out to the roadside and either keep the compressor topped up and running by leaving it permanently on, or my Clarke mains electric impact gun can join the party (this one):

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cew1000-electric-impact-wrench (https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cew1000-electric-impact-wrench)

Reading the reviews make me vaguely optimistic that it will do the job; it's certainly chewed trough everything else I've put before it. It doesn't have quite the grunt of Eric's Milwaukee, but I live in hope.

One way or another, that crank pulley nut is coming off...

Graham

Also use some heat on the nut from a blow torch if it still refuses to give up.

Good Luck

Eric

It's off.

In the end, it only took about 10 seconds with the Clarke mains electric airgun to shift it. All very undramatic, it just came off. So electric trumps air in this case. Proof shown below.

With the (very heavy) triple groove crank pulley off, I was able to turn my attention to other stuff. The first thing was to see if the water pump pulley off the seized carb engine would fit. It wouldn't - there was a sensor bolted to a metal bracket with a pointer that was in the way. I guessed that it was something along the lines of a crank position sensor for the injection engine, and decided to take it off. With it off the carb water pump pulley fitted perfectly and lined up with the carb crank pulley. The sensor is shown in the second (also visible in the previous photo). Can anyone confirm if my diagnosis was correct ot not?

I then lined up the various pulleys and marked them with Tippex ready to change the belt. When the crank pulley was lined up exactly with its alignment mark, the aux pulley looked about half a tooth off. Is this an acceptable level of variance, or is something amiss? (And before anyone mentions it I will very definitely be changing the idler bearing...)

And lastly, with the crank pulley lined up correctly, one of the camwheels looked a bit off, as well. Is cambelt changing an exact science, or is there a bit of leeway?

But anyway, at least I feel like I've made some real progress. And while I had electric power available I got the multitool sander out and gave the flywheel drive face a good clean up, followed up with plenty of brake cleaner and scrubbing.

I think you'll find your air tool probably isn't well matched to your compressor (compressor too small relative to air consumption of the tool) a friend recently had the opposite his electric tool wouldn't shift it but my air tool took out of in seconds

Yes, I'd agree, The tool is pro quality, the compressor is hobby quality. I should really have given the air tool another go with a compressor that could replenish itself first, but it was just easier to get stuck in with the electric gun.

I think you will be alright with that belt alignment, certainly from the point of not causing any damage. I once got the belt one tooth out on my ie and had to move it after start up.

Plenty of dry turning of the engine after fitting, but you know that!

The sensor at the crankshaft is for digiplex ignition system, used not in all injected engines. Mine has the standard type electronic ignition system without these sensors (some models have also camshaft position sensor).
I would try to readjust the exhaust pulley, as it looks to be a bit misaligned. The auxiliary pulley looks ok.

Graham

Remove the Sensor from the Pointer and re-fit the pointer so you have a TDC pointer. You will be needing one with a clear mark on the pulley you are using for ignition timing. You can have un-used outer pulleys machined off fairly easily which saves weight and makes re-fitting the engine easier.

Cheers

Eric

Thanks, chaps. I'm definitely going to try and get things to line up a bit better than at present when I fit the new belt (especially the ex camwheel), but I won't be too upset if I have to go with how it is now.

Perhaps I need to clarify the water pump pulley issue; I've taken off all the pulleys from the carb engine and intend to use them on the i.e. engine. The pulleys on the i.e. engine are well over the top for my needs and would make an already crowded area of the engine bay even more so. My problem was with clearance on the carb water pump pulley with the sensor and pointer fitted. The pointer fouled the back of the water pump pulley. Unfortunately I don't have the i.e. pulley at hand to compare - that's languishing unloved in the lockup in Stafford.

When I transfer the block mounted distributor over to the i.e. engine I'm fully prepared to have to use a dial gauge to determine TDC. With the engine out it should hopefully be easier than with it in situ. However when I get to that point I will definitely be back asking more questions, as the Haynes manual seems to completely overlook the possibility that someone might need to set the ignition timing on an engine with electronic ignition. It's well covered for engines with points, but thankfully mine has electronic ignition. (I hate contact breaker points with a passion...)

Finally got a chance to do some more work on the engine today. The engine is covered (inside a van), but I'm standing or kneeling outside, so it's no fum working on it when it's raining (or snowing as it was yesterday). Anyway the weather was kind today and progress was made. In fact everything went together so smoothly I'm actually a bit shocked.

The new idler bearing fitted perfectly in the housing after it had been cleaned and plated, and the belt went on as easy as. I even managed to get the inlet and exhaust cam pulleys lined up pretty much spot on with the pointers. The first photo is with belt on but not tightened.

As you can see everything lines up nicely. The aux pulley is slightly off, but I'd rather expected that to be the case. And the second photo is with belt tightened and crank and water pump pulley fitted. I used Loctite 243 on the crank nut, the idler bearing nut and the water pump bolts. Possibly overkill, but I prefer it that way.

So hopefully at the weekend it's back down to Stafford and get the engine reunited with clutch and gearbox. Here's hoping that my current run of good fortune continues...

Looks perfect. Did you retightened the crank nut by hand or with air gun?
I am wondering why has Lancia changed cam pulleys from holed ones (like the aux pulley) to full? They are not only weavier, but also ugly...   ::)

Are the cam pulleys plastic on the later engines?

Peter

Hi Lukas, I retightened the crank pulley using an air gun. It seemed the easiest way to do it, given the problems I've had locking the flywheel previously. You can't know the exact torque you're using by that method, which is why I used Loctite as well. And I agree, the lightened aux pulley looks much better and loses a bit of weight compared to the plain one.

All the pulleys on this engine were steel, Peter. It's an i.e. engine with power steering pump fitted, so reasonably late.

Looking good!



Just a quick update: I've been using this rattle gun a lot this weekend. It is the best bit of kit I've bought yet. Brilliant.

At least mine are steel.

Any tips on how to remove the nut that retains the cambelt pulley on the crank?  I own many sockets but none for that key feature.

Second question - is there a part number on that alternator drive pulley?  If it has the right offset I may want one for my Zagato engine project.

Hi

You need a 36mm socket for the crank nut and ideally use a rattle gun which makes it simple normally....

Sorry no idea on the alternator p/n, I just bought a complete unit.

Peter

I think 36mm is the drive shaft nut, crankshaft pulley nut 38mm or 1.5 inch

Hi Alan

Damn, you are correct, I had the 36mm for the drive shaft and had to buy the 38mm.....

Thanks

Peter

Thanks!