Lancia Beta Forum

I have been asked about this but not ever had a injection Beta i could only guess at the reasons.
Firstly it has been suggested that there could be a few reasons why.
 The hose from the tank to the pump has weakened and is collasping as fuel is being sucked along it?

or

 The fuel outlet pipe insde the tank has rusted and so the pump is pumping air as well as fuel.

A new fuel pump has been fitted.

Any ideas on a postcard.
Thanks
Mark

Rust in the petrol tank.

The filter is after the pump so the rust particles get to the pump, stay there(magnetic field and all that) then when the car stops you turn off ignition and invistigate. Car normally restarts and the cycle is repeated. A fuel pressure guage by the fuel rail and the bonnet propped open may help to enlighten. There is not much room for a filter before the pump but it is possible. By the time you have put the cleaned petrol tank back in, changed all the braided fuel lines to it and finally got the filler rubber back in place you will fine a place for a second filter.

Another impossible problem is a dodgey rotor arm and or cap on the IE and volumex. It works but only sometimes......The two often happen about the same time.

The main reason i have found for fuel starvation on IE's or Vx's - had two in the last couple of weeks recently, is usually the screen on the pick up (looks a bit like a lobster pot) in the tank.

That is if a carburettor fuel tank has been bodged on, look under the carpet, remove the plastic cover and you will see two pipes on the sender unit to confirm this.
Recently spent a freezing cold evening with a customer broken down with the above mentioned "beauty" of a bodge by somebody who should have known better - no names mentioned - until the AA recovered us.

Symptoms of fuel starvation are a good idle usually but "kangaroos" and wont pull cutting out as you try to drive.
 
Gum from stale petrol builds up in the fine holes - and i mean fine - on the protective mesh starving the pump of adequate fuel supply and hence a lack of quantity rather than pressure.

Check the pressure with a pressure gauge as HFHAWK has mentioned but it will still have enough pressure to fool you - so long as the ring main fuel regulator functions properly that is!
You need to remove the pipe that feed the injectors (19mm and 17mm unions) and measure the amount of fuel pumped - litres a minute to be 100% sure, to energise the pump just open the flap in the airflow meter and time what comes out into a measuring jug.
Don't ask me how much i cant remember! will look this up if your man wants to investigate further.

Rust particles should not make it past the screen in the tank but do stick to the outside of it stopping up the system  yet further (unless it has been pierced and precautions have not been taken) .
New pumps come with a plastic fine mesh built in to prevent this now.


Only time the pipe collapse is when a poor quality pipe is used that is too flimsy and also has a kink in it so blocking the flow.

Best way to fix is to pierce the screen and fit a fuel filter before the new fuel pump.

I also have this issue. 
After fixing a cold start problem, I now find I have a fuel starvation issue on high demand/load conditions.  There has been a new filter and pump fitted and tank flushed by previous owner. (pump noisy)
I have now taken the tank off...fuel cloudy, tank reasonably clean.  But looking at this lobster pot gauze filter, it does look pretty gummed up and when blowing through there is quite a bit of resistance.  I believe this is the reason for the noisy pump...has intermittantly run dry and damaged the bearings.

I'm now going to get the tank cleaned, replace pump and filter.  Question is...how do I get holes in this lobster pot gauze filter?  I must be made of strong stuff...Stainless?  I have tried with a couple of implements, but to no avail..!

Any thoughts?

I have now resolved this problem.  Got the tank cleaned, and he also cleaned the lobster pot filter..good job.  Re-installed tank, new pump and filter, car now pulling like a train...yippee.  Only slight issue now is that the new pump seems to be developing a slight noise...will monitor.

Have you resolved the problem finally? No I am facing with it. I mounted a new pump and an additional fuel filter, but the pump is really noisy. I blown the fuel pipe to the tank and there is no so high resistance, but when I tried to pour off the fuel flows down a bit slowly...Should the fuel lines be bled?

Hi once had an outlet pipe from tank fracture, all ok when tank full,as tank drained through use began to splutter. On inspection with inlet pipe discontected and pointed into milk bottle loads of air bubbles can thorogh with petrol. Hope this helps.

When we look through the fuel level sender openning two pipes can be seen in the swirl pot reservoir. One runs at the bottom and the second (looks thicker) comes from the top then is bent to the bottom. Which of them is a feeding and which a return hose? Where can I find a mentioned mesh?

Sadly my fuel starvation problem seems to be not solved yet :/
What is worth mentioning after a long stay, for example after a night or couple of hours, the car drives smoothly and the pump is almost not hearable, but after about 10kms of not problematic drive the pump becomes noisy, (the sound it emits is variable and seems that changes with an engine load change) and eventually the engine stops. Then the restarted engine stops again just after a while. If the pause is longer the engine runs longer.
The pump was replaced (new Bosch unit) along with new fuel filter and the additional mesh filter before the pump was installed.
I suspect these reasons:
- pump (new but with failure or blocked by small particles not catched by the meshed filter (if it is possible)  
- fuel pressure regulator
- fuel tank filter (no idea how to clean it as the opening is to small to put a hand in.
- fuel tank reservoir fills up slowly

Fuel lines seem to be ok and fuel flows out from a tank freely when the feed hose is disconnected from the fuel primary filter. I got already stuck with it :(
Any tips how to get it solved are welcome  8)

No one has a single idea?
Today I looked through the hole in the boot while the engine was running, the fuel level was enough, up to the top edge of the swirl pot. Fuel inside the pot really swirl and quite fast. I wonder what is the real purpose of it? To mix fuel or to get an inertia to the mass of the pot portion of fuel?
The engine and the fuel pump worked just perfect  ::)

It's a difficult one but it does sound like vapourisation rather than blockage.

I cured mine by heat wrapping the fuel lines where they we're close to the exhaust. I used a split corrugated tube sleeve for ease of fitting.

I'd suggest doing it both sides of the pump.

Hi

If it is predictable after a run and when hot, then I would suggest the same as Stuart, for some reason you are getting the fuel lines hot which apart from being a pain, I would suggest you should check soon and try some shielding to see what difference it makes.

Peter

Is there a return fuel line on the ie? If so then with the engine at idle most of the fuel is being returned to the tank that would cause the turbulence you saw. I think it's more side effect than for any purpose.

Thanks guys very much
Yes, there is a return pipe and it is inserted into the surge tank. It can be just a side effect as you sugest, but looks really professional and purposeful :)
The vapourisation effect sound reasonable so I will have a look tomorrow closer at the lines, however there is an aluminium thermal shield at the first silencer (in the pump vicinity). If I am correct in thinking as the fuel pump starts to be noisy prior to the engine stop the fuel gets vapoured before the pump.
I am going to check also the surge tank if it does not get dry. When the engine stops as usual I will check the fuel level through the opening in the boot. Is the mentioned pot fed only through the return pipe, or should it also be connected with the main tank?

The vapour theory is refuted eventually. I shielded all the sensitive fuel elements with a thick layer of rock wool with aluminium foil bonded, and there was no change. The engine started as always perfectly with the pump working just noiseless, then after a couple of kilometers, probably at full temperature, the pump begined to be hearable, then got noiser and eventually the engine stopped. After a few minutes pause the engine worked again but the pump was audible. I also check the fuel level in the swirl pot and was almost at its top edge. What I realised removing a fuel lever sender was created a quite big underpressure inside the tank. I checked the breather pipe but seems to be ok.
I am starting to feel powerless. I am going to drive this car for my wedding next month but definitelly not if it is not reliable :(
So pump, pressure regulator, tank or collapsing rubber hose... Any suggestions? please help :)

Hi

When. You say under pressure, do you mean that there was a sudden rush in of air to the tank?

If this is the case, does leaving the filler cap loose help matters.

I cannot see having a pressure differential in the tank being normal.

Peter

Yes Peter, it was. Almost vacuum  ::) the top wall of the tank was depressed. When I pressurized it removing the sender unit it came to the normal position. I am wondering why this happens as the breathing pipe is not blocked.  I will check it out today along with checking a water temperature sensor, its wiring etc. There is a small chance that the connectors of the temperature sender and a temperature switch are transposed :/ obviously it does not have any regard with vacuum in the tank ;)
There are two facts for sure:
1. the engine stops when gets hot
2. the fuel pump starts working noisy prior to the engine stop
they can be linked but of course may not
 ???

OK so take it one problem at a time.

There should not be a vacuum or low pressure in the tank. As suggested try it with the fuel cap off and see if that makes a difference.

Some update. What is strange that the underpressure inside the tank creates even when the engine is not working, i.e overnight  :o But this has no impact on the said fuel starvation as when I removed the filler cap the issue did not disappeared, unfortunately.
I also checked the temperature sensor and wiring harnesses. Everything is just okay with it. I check then the fuel pump efficiency. It also is okay - the pump pumps over 2liter/minute. Another test: I switch the ignition to on and opened the flap inside the AFM to start the pump. I let to pump over 20minutes, but with the engine stopped. The pump worked silent with no problems. Then I took a trip. Unfortunatelly the problem started again in the same way as always. Definitelly the temperature must have its role in the issue however. 
???

Ok, you need to establish how this low pressure is being generated and stored. The tank should not allow this. You say the breather pipe is ok, how are you establishing this?

Can you run the car with the sender unit slightly undone, so allowing it not to be a sealed unit?

Does this reduce the pump noise etc?

Next is to establish why the pressure differential happens, you need to check all the openings in the tank, how you do this I am unsure how the VX tank works, maybe someone else here could suggest a way?

Peter

I simply blew into the pipe then tried to suck. Seemed ok.
I drove with a loose filler cap, also removed the sender while the pump worked noisily. No result. There are 5 openings in my tank: filler, feed, return and 2x breather (one connected to a filler neck, and the second led outside the chassis under a spare wheel. 
I need to check yet a rubber hose that connects tank with pump, it is bent and is likely that when heated may collapse. If this will not solve the issue I will try to prepare and use a plastic provisional tank and place it in the spare wheel well.  ::)

I looked into the tank again and with  some help of a long screwdriwer and a narrow wire brush I realised that the issue may be just caused by blocked filter. After refreshing the tank I treated it inside with rust converter (Fertran). Afterwards I rinsed the tank few times, but it seems that a layer of converted rust still exist inside and slowly come off. I tried tu pump fuel away from the surge tank, but slowly fuel poured there again from the main tank. The sucked fuel contained a lot of converted rust products (black and glazed). I am going now to remove the tank and clean it inside by shaking it with steel nuts and some petrol.
In the picture attached I pointed main elements inside the lobster pot.
Could anyone correct me and/or ease my doubts:
1. No. 1 Surge tank (or lobster pot)
2. No. 2 fuel feed line
3. No. 3 Fuel return line
4. No. 4 Suction element with strainer
5. Apart of a return line how the surge tank is filled up?
6. Does the strainer suck fuel by side wall and/or through the bottom? which surfaces should be cleaned? The strainer I reckon has tiny holes and can be easily blocked. The opening in the tank is too smal to insert a hand inside, also the surge tank is small, and there is almost impossible to clean the suction element from the bottom side:/
7. Which element should I pierced in case of totally blocked strainer, the top surface? Additional filter is already placed before the pump. 
I will appreciate any suggestion :)

I removed the tank and have it cleaned thoroughly and let it dry. I also checked the pump and operation of the fuel system without the tank. I used plastic canister filled with petrol and transparent lines connected to the pump and as well to the return line. What I realised was a flux of air bubbles with petrol coming from the return line (no air in the suction line). The starvation might have been linked with the bubbles, when the pump sucks by chance air bubbles in the lobster pot. Where the bubbles may get into the lines? I am sure not before the pump as there was no bubbles observed in it. I could not find any leaks in the system ::) The only place where air can get into the lines may be a pressure regulator. Am I right?I can add that a kind whisper comes from the regulator while the pump works.

So I have cleaned the tank thoroughly, checked all the lines and filled up with 30ltrs of fresh premium petrol. In a garage runs like new, however I am going to take a longer trip today to verify it. Keep fingers crossed please  8)

I drove today 25kms without any single symptom. I will keep an eye on it further  8)
I should mention also that I placed a piece of copper sheet inside the surge tank between a return line outlet and a suction filter to prevent air bubbles from sucking into a feeding line...

Hi Lukas

So you did not resolve why there were air bubbles in first place?

Peter

Maybe nothing????????? but has anyone mentioned the little conical filters/gauzes in the injectors themselves?
these if on a 'high miler' may become gummed and deposit blocked??? I removed mine, rigged up a reverse flow cleaning system on each
injector and reverse flushed at pump pressure with a 9 volt battery connected to electrical connection and aimed nozzle into
a clear glass jar! on all but one there was some 'bobar' in the bottom of the jar after flushing?????
fuel pressure, volume and tank return will indicate 'normal' but injector output and stoichiometric 14.7:1 will be skewed and hence
massive hole in engine output especially under load, mimicking 'starvation'.
I have also observed that pump 'noise' is directly related to both fuel temp and more so by fuel aeriation?
Just a thought :-[
kev b.

Peter,
No, unfortunatelly I didn't resolve the mistery. Maybe it was air trapped inside the fuel system beforehand. I will monitor it, I hope they are going to fade :)
Definitelly the noisiness was caused both by troubles with fuel sucking and air bubles that were caught with fuel.
Another thing I observed now is that the engine starts to miss at iddle when hot. Sounds like an ignition issue... It can be linked with charging/voltage as intermittently a charging warning light comes up.
kev,
When I have time I will also check the injectors. There is a matter of fact that they may be blocked, as they have their age and the car was not running for some years. Now I am also preparing to my wedding so I run a bit short of time :/

Pretty sure I know where your priorities 'SHOULD' be focussed :D many congrats for your forth coming event ;D.
Yes, i found my budget injection clean vvvery time consuming but to date very worthwhile!
The other option of course would be to send them off to one of the many companies for an ultrasonic clean and
flow report? even more time hungry and perhaps financially to boot :-\ ( also, ultasonic cleaning tanks can be bought cheaply these days, Maplin?)
Hope prob turns out to be both a simple and cheap fix?
kev b.

The issue is finally solved, at least I hope so. Thorough cleaning eliminated the fuel starvation. Mentioned ignition issues were caused by a torn hose of auxiliary air bypass just at the intake manifold inlet. Probably it were both that together took my nerves for test  ::)
I took yesterday an over 100km trip with no problems at all.  8)

Hi Lukas

Very happy you sorted it out, though I guess having the problem may also means you have sorted some other issues out as well!

Peter

Now the engine revvs so sweet  8)
And an another dillema has just popped out. The speedometer shows about 10km/h les than should indicate while the odometer counts rather correctly. Is it possible? The speedo cable was replaced recently and is brand new. Are there any markings on the differential/box housing that show the diff ratio? I know this is a bit out off topic...sorry about that  8)

The diff ratio is stamped on the side of the centre gearbox casing. for example on a VX it is 19/62.

Eric

Thanks Eric,
I will try to look closer there  8)