Lancia Beta Forum

Lucy has just passed her MOT and we're looking forward to attending several events this year.

She's completely original and has never had a stero fitted.

Should I fit one to keep kids happy or just buy them an iPod each?

Fit one- but don't butcher the mounting to fit a modern type. They look awful anyway, the majority of 'em. All flashing lights and images and tack!! Fit one of these:
http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=18428 (http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=18428)

They fit the original aperture- you don't have to cut it to fit it. And you can use your ipad/mp3/card/whatever player with them.

Andrew.

Not cheap though!

Another option fit a Bluetooth streaming device such as the io play this can be hidden behind the dash and you stream music from your phone, it has its own amplifier not tried this on a beta but it ought to work well and can be almost completely hidden if you wanted

My HPE VX also never had a stereo fitted. If I did go for the retro radio from Moss, what to about speakers? There is no way I'm going to butcher door panels - what are the options?

There is provision to fit front speakers behind the vinyl cover panel that is behind the map pockets in the foot wells.

I have seen rear speakers fitted on the rear parcel shelf but it was a very tight fit.

Not exactly the best thought out place for the speakers always thought it was a bit of a mess up by Lancia, I think early cars had provision in the doors instead which was probably better acoustically, not something I've really pondered yet as my car is still in a state of suspended restoration

On the early Spyders S2 pre f/l (I assume Coupes as well) there are provision for speakers at the lower front of the doors where the plastic 'chrome' kick plates are. Some of the kick plates have holes in them to allow the sound through, I  also have some others which are solid. Interestingly when I bought my car it had the solid ones and they were drilled to allow the sound to come through, so not sure which came first or if it was an option if you had a radio from new.

Peter

In my Fulvia coupe I have fitted a modern Sony HiFi, hidden in the glove box. As Beta’s glove box is quite bigger, there is plenty of space left for … the gloves. I have also fitted -hidden next to the center console- a remote control with cable (once the closed box did not allow the cordless one to operate). Finally a DIN cable in the console’s shelf secures connection of MP3s and Phone devices.
Finally, as Fulvia had no place for speakers, I have drilled a series of small round holes on the rear shelf and placed the speakers beneath.
The result is nice, as only close inspection can allow someone to notice the presence of the remote control.

[When I bought my BETA spider, a period radio had been already fitted and speakers were fitted in the places provided behind the map pockets.]

(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/3448/img06341n.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/img06341n.jpg/)

The remote control is easy to see - it's just under that big sign ;)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quite reasonable, I think. It's an almost unique design with a limited market- there are only a couple of manufacturers offering this kind of thing.

Then again, original spindle radios are plentiful for virtually free as they are worthless at this point in time- give it a few years and they'll be 'period correct classic' and worth a fortune. Personally I can't stand their limitations- poor sounding radio as they're usually AM and cassette only. Cassettes weren't too bad actually but who has a cassette recorder in their home hifi set up now...? I doubt many of you...
I really think the retrosound is a great solution and I plan to fit one in my VX.

Andrew.

The door panels were never the best option as a location for speakers anyway- they get damp too easily and they're pointing straight into your legs usually. The factory location is behind the map pockets in the footwell- there is actually a circle cut out of the metal to allow a speaker to be set into it. Poor location, poor directional sound and way too small for any bass response.
I plan to make some kind of speaker enclosures where the map pockets were in the footwells- something that will allow the speaker to be angled upwards towards the driver, and then fit a subwoofer in the boot area; probably tucked into the left-hand side opposite the spare wheel. If you have a separate bass enclosure it removes the need for your other speakers to be spectacularly good or unnecessarily large- the difficult thing for a small speaker to reproduce is bass. Asking a door panel mounted speaker to reproduce deep, convincing bass is too much; you'll only be disappointed. It'll either be sadly lacking in low frequency response or it'll vibrate the panel like crazy.
And the thing that is always totally overlooked by virtually everyone who is attempting to fit a stereo (or improve on what they've got) is sound deadening. Older cars, such as ours, are seriously pathetic in this department. People fitting bigger amps and bigger speakers; not realising they're not tackling the very reason as to why they're doing it- noise! I'm currently about half way through applying some noise killing sound insulation- a multi layered, multi material installation that is proven to be effective in reducing vibration (structural) noise and higher frequency (airbourne) noise. I'm hoping it'll negate the need for any silly big amps. As a musician and a recording engineer I am quite fussy about sound/frequency response etc. A car is the worst possible environment to attempt to get a good sound but it can be done with a little planning and some money. It's never going to be cheap but there is absolutely no point in spending money on a nice hifi if you're going to be competing with big dbs of road noise and wind noise. Obviously, some people aren't so critical of sound and are quite happy as long as they can hear it- tolerating all kinds of hiss and noise and distortion. Me? that drives me nuts! I have to have nice audio in a car as sometimes it's the only thing that keeps you focused on a long journey. If it sounds $hite I'm more likely not to put it on as it'll just annoy me!  ;D
Having said all this it is possible to get a reasonable quality of sound in most cars for a few hundred quid; you don't have to go crazy. But by fitting speakers into the footwells of a Beta where Lancia intended them and coupling them with a standard Blaupunkt spindle radio from the 70's (which is exactly what the dashboard aperture was designed for) isn't even going to get you close to reasonable. It'll just sound crap. The very least you must do to get anything like a 'hifi' sound is fit a separate bass speaker somewhere.
Once I've built my front footwell angled speaker boxes I will of course post the results here and if they prove to be good I'll gladly post a 'how to' guide for them with all the measurements etc. so it'll be quick and easy for anyone else to build some.
But it ain't gonna be anytime soon as I'm already 2 years behind on my interior retrim...  :'( 

Andrew.

Hi Andrew

Piece of cake then, now how about designing one for the Spyder.....

Peter

I've always found it quite easy to live with an old lancia without any music it's nice to listen to a proper engine.

My small small door speakers used to sound ok (behind the panel no holes) with my period Sharp radio. But as Spud states one of them was wrecked when water got into the passenger door during a lay up.

Kids are getting iPod shuffles :)

Would have gone for the retro option until the speaker issue raised its head

Speakers don't have to show. In the Trevi, I've covered the rear parcel shelf in acoustic speaker cloth which hides the speakers very well  :D

(http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/Thotos/Trevi/P1060248s.jpg?t=1256419596)

(http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy292/Thotos/Trevi/P1060249s-1.jpg?t=1256419931)

http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg1574#msg1574 (http://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=395.msg1574#msg1574)

I was so pleased with the result that I used the same trick in the Gamma (actually looks better now it's been stretched better)  ;)

(http://www.gammaconsortium.com/images/GammaRestoration/f.JPG)

http://gammaconsortium.com/lanciagammaforum/index.php?topic=475.msg8535#msg8535 (http://gammaconsortium.com/lanciagammaforum/index.php?topic=475.msg8535#msg8535)

To my mind, unless you are driving a modern car, getting a sound any where near 'hi fi' is a waste of money.  The road / engine noise will completely negate the benefits.

However, that doesn't mean you can't have decent sound.  Agree that the only way to approach this is with a dedicated sub - although I have looked at some 9x6s in the rear panel of my spider to supplement the footwell speakers. 

Guys

I have a Montecarlo with a great tuned engine so now I just use the iPhone in a Tom Tom iPhone cradle and Bose Noise cancelling headphones. I have phone, navigation and good sound quality where the Sony 4 x 100 head unit and 4 x decent quality modern speakers have no purpose over 45 MPH. I can see me saving weight and space and removing them next time I am working on the interior. I am of course working to improve the noise levels but 200 BHP and 8500 RPM close to your head has it's down side.

Getting speakers into my Spyder without ruining the door cards on my tidy VX interior remain a challenge as the footwell speakers without something of scale higher up and behind me is not worth doing. I have seen speakers cut into Coupe rear seat foam making them invisible but I suspect the great Bose headphones will get more use.

Eric   

If i were you, I would check and make sure it is acceptable and legal to use headphones while driving!

Point taken on legality of headphones and I am aware of this concern and I can confirm I can hear far more relevant information around me with them on with the noise levels in my Montecarlo. These are not ear defenders or vast woolly ear muffs. If you get a chance to try noise cancelling head phones this will make more sense. I am not ramping the volume up to hear over the back ground noise or shutting out all external sound.

Eric     

aren't noise cancelling headphones supposed to shut the outside noise out???

I cannot think how to describe this beyond they cut regular drum hiss and thrash.

Eric

The cut out constant "white noise" like aircraft engine noise, loud car engines, computer room cooling etc. but if someone sat next to you and spoke the irregular sound waves of their speech would be perfectly audible.

They are an essential bit of kit if you spend a long time flying about or working in computer rooms.  I couldn't do without them!

It's perfectly legal to use headphones whilst driving - and arguably safer than having a loud stereo.

As Matt says, decent headphones will cut out the 'white noise' and allow you to safely hear all around you.  And have the volume lower than you otherwise would.

I have ridden tens of thousands of miles on a motorbike (inc a daily 150 mile round trip commute to the City) and have always listened to music (my favourites are Sennheiser but Bose also v good) 

Never thought the subject of earphones would come up for discussion here (!!) but I use them all the time as a live performing musician. They are, without a doubt, the most important discovery I've ever made in my job as a gigging musician and offer the greatest protection possible on a loud stage environment. For those of you that haven't stood on a stage, next to a rock drummer in full assault mode and a Marshall Stack screaming at you, you would not believe how loud it can get. A drum kit, played properly, is an incredibly loud instrument, the cymbals alone can make you wince and wish you weren't there... In-ear earphones, fitted with moulded earpieces or foam buds, cancel out all the noise and allow me to hear the mix of the band at a volume I'm comfortable with, which is just wonderful compared to the volume I used to have to tolerate and is why you hardly ever see a live performer without them these days.
The best you'll ever find are made by an American company called Ultimate Ears, and the model is called the Triple-Fi 10. These are, in my experience, the finest hifi earphones in existence. As for hearing conversation, that comes down to the type of material used for the buds which are the squashy bits that sit in your ear and provide the 'seal' from the outside world. I use a bud called 'Comply Foam' which heat up with your body temperature and provide a perfect seal which also enhances the sound quality as the bass reproduction is wholly dependent on 100% contact with your skin. Any gaps would ruin the bass. This perfect seal however makes it almost impossible to hear anything that isn't coming out of the in-ear speakers, i.e. conversation next to you. When I have music in mine you could scream at me less than a few inches away from my face and I wouldn't be able to hear a thing from you.
There are ear plugs/defenders that do cut out general noise but allow close proximity voices to get through and there are some earphones that do the same but to get a really nice sound from earphones you need a perfect seal... but with an engine like Eric's who wants music anyway?!

Andrew.

I certainly wish I'd discovered earplugs earlier in my life. I spent best part of 10 years working in a computer room environment, and had ridden motorcycles for over 20 years before I first discovered them. If I'd known about them sooner I'm fairly sure I wouldn't suffer the advanced hearing loss I experience now - conversations in pubs/crowded places are very difficult and I've lost the frequency range above 8-10 khz in my hearing. I'd give a lot to have my ears back, working in the way they used to...

I have already mounted a Pioneer KE-5000. It is a cassete player with a digital tuner from early 80s, probably one of the first of the type. Obviously I do not expect such great music effects, just I want to have a lovely and working unit from the era. I also would like to use the space provided by the manufacturer for the speakers - behind the pockets near footwells. I know it is not the best but original. I have run new speaker leads despite the original ones are fixed, but they, even quite thick, are likely oxidized. The only concern I have is how to match it with a proper speakers. As the head unit has not so impressive output (2x6W) what speakers should I use to get an optimal result? Nowadays speakers have quite high outputs, at least 25Watts... My headunit may not drive them properly. Any advice would be welcome :)

I must've missed this last post... The Pioneer KE-5000 is a really cool retro unit!
You're quite right, modern speakers are usually much more powerful than the older type but the figures are less accurate than they use to be... in fact, blatantly fraudulent generally... There is only really one figure to take any notice of- wattage expressed in RMS terms. "Root Mean Square". You'll see many manufactureres of hi-fi equipment, particularly car hi-fi equipment, stating power figures in 'Peak Power' terms. This figure is bull$hit, basically. It's a (usually) made up number. It is supposedly the absolute maximum amount of noise that a speaker can reproduce for a short period of time. The clues are all in that previous sentence... ignore totally anything that mentions 'peak'. The power output of the Pioneer KE-5000- is it 2x6wRMS? If so, that's not too quiet at all. To match any speakers with it you'll need to find out the RMS figure for the unit and then try to match the speakers as closely as possible to it. You'll probably have to get speakers with a higher power handling capability as you're unlikely to find any 6wRMS speakers these days but keep as close to it as you can and it will perform better. Let us know how you get on.

Andrew.

Too much talk of so called power of speakers you are more likely to blow a speaker by clipping an underpowered amp, speaker efficiency is a relevant issue as high efficiency will accommodate lower amplifier power

Unfortunatelly finding of good quality 130mm speakers rated less than 25Watt is nowadays really hard or even impossible :/
what do you think about u-dimension EL COAX- 5?

Why would they need to be rated at less than 25w ? As long as they are efficient it would not matter to use a lower powered amp you just must not run the amp into clipping. The power rating is just the maximum clean power that a speaker can handle


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

They look fine to me- from what info I can find on them they look well made and not cheap n nasty at all. Capable of too much power for your unit really though but, as we agree, it's hard to find anything smaller these days. Pioneer TS-G1321i are closer to what you need. JVC CS-V517 even more so.

Andrew.

You are correct about the amp not clipping, but, as an extreme example of your point, if you put a 100W RMS speaker onto a 6W amp it will sound awful. A speaker needs to be driven. Yes, you'll never blow it by overpowering it but you'll get no power from it either because the amp won't have the energy to move it.

Andrew.

That's the point that I was afraid of and also not sure  ::)

That's why you need to look at the efficiency of the speaker, they can still be efficient even with high power handling. All this high power stuff is silly on a car anyway at home my amp is only 20w channel and out is plenty loud enough, in a car true 20w would be deafening

Absolutely. The figures quoted for car hi-fi stuff is insane. Ear damage stuff.

Andrew.

Thanks Guys for your tips. I have just ordered a set of TS-G1321i that you suggested. I will report the results when I test them  8)

i got a stereo in mine but i never have it on, i prefer to hear the engine

My stereo sounds good enough  8)

That sounds like a Naim amp.

musical fidelity a1