Lancia Beta Forum

I know a while ago someone enquired about the Reflex (I think after the brochure popped up on Ebay).

I've exchanged emails with Graham, the owner of the last known Reflex, which is SORN at the moment and in need of a bit of restoration.  The owner has given his approval for me to share these pictures and some of the history.

Three cars were completed, he was not sure how many kits were sold, nor was he sure what happened to the other two cars.  

The other two cars were owned by a friend of Grahams and the pair of them did buy the original moulds and tried to revive the kit, but sadly Graham does not recall what happened to the moulds, so its doubtful that there will ever be another Reflex built again.

Here are the pictures graham kindly sent me....... the cars look very 1980's to me.  A hint of X/19 and Jaguar XJS....

Would be interested in what people think, anyone recall seeing one at a show or on the road?

Definite hint of Mazda I think.

A dash of early MR2 and bits of a Mitsi Starion Turbo...

You can certainly see plenty of influences from other marques...

They look better from behind.

The fronts remind me of 80s 'wedge' TVRs

And the first version of the Toyota Supra

Peter

Hi guys I'm resurrecting this thread as I have found one of these cars just up the road from me. It caught my eye on my way home from work so I stopped and had a closer look. It has no number plates and appears to have not seen the road for a very long time - if ever. It's a shame to see such a rare & unusual car in poor condition.

Pics?

Here's the only one I took
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy43/AuroraCab69/IMG_20130528_173041.jpg)

Hi

Looks like the same as the red one in the pics posted by Matt from earlier shows, the wheels are the same at least.

Is it likely to be up for sale or is the owner likely to get it back on the road, do you know?

Out of interest as well, where is it located?

Peter

I've seen worse - I wonder if that's the one Matt referred to when he said Graham had the last known one which needed some TLC.

If not you've just doubled the known population!

Yes it does look remarkably like the one in the pics and it has the perspex light covers,  not pop up headlights like the white one. What makes me wonder if it is the same one is the fact that it doesn't have a number plate, nor could I find one in the car.
It definitely would need a ground up restoration as it looks like it has been stored outside for a considerable time. From what I could see from the underside everything would need stripping back and most likely welding to the chassis.
Not sure if it is for sale. What price do you put on something so rare?

Try registration Q458 JFL or Q458 JPL

Certainly looks like the red car from the pictures Graham sent us.

Would be nice to see something like this bought back to its former glory.

I suspect its rarity has little to do with the price and more to do with if someone is prepared to take it on and its desirability. After all this time and the fact that it needs a full restore and it was a relative unknown kit car, hence not that desirable, I would not have thought it was worth any more than a normal scrap/parts car. The restore will cost at least a few £1000s given everything will need doing inc full respray etc.

Just my 10p worth

I do however think it should be saved/restored, as an interesting application of a donor Beta, anyone fancy a group buy? I can probably find some dry storage for it (no not your barn Matt....!)

Peter

Looks like Q458JFC

DVLA report


Date of Liability   01 08 1998
Date of First Registration   19 06 1992
Year of Manufacture   1992
Cylinder Capacity (cc)   1995cc
CO2 Emissions   Not Available
Fuel Type   PETROL
Export Marker   N
Vehicle Status   Unlicensed
Vehicle Colour   RED
Vehicle Type Approval   Not Available

Peter

So it's had 15 years of sitting around, so not as bad as some Betas !!

Its located near Ashford in Kent. If any of you are definitely interested in rescuing it I'd he happy to go back and try to glean some more info on it. I'm not out to make a profit, it'd just be nice to see a very rare car go to someone who has the time,  tools and expertise to restore it.

I would be up for it, obviously depends on owners view ie its worth and if they are willing to part with it etc.

Peter

Peter, I'm happy to stop again on my way home today and try to get more info for you - as long as you're sure you want it?

PM Sent

Hi All

First thanks to Tom who took time out to call in again and ask about the car.

The upshot is that the guy who owns it does not want to be contacted and it has been left for the guy who owns the adjacent business is selling it for him. Tom gave me the number and I rang him to discuss. he is rather abrupt on the phone and appeared not that interested or knowledgeable. Interestingly he claims the car has never been registered, which is where I decided to duck out as going through IVA is not something I have any interest in. The asking price for the car is £750 which for me is way too much given it probably needs a full strip down and then rebuild inc any mods for current IVA.

If anyone wants further info, PM me for the tel number.

Peter

It may not have to go through the IVA?  Perhaps it could be considered as a 'radically altered vehicle'?

Still a hassle though

Hi

Hmmmm that is pretty 'radically altered' if the donor is still known and was front drive car originally!

Not sure I would want to bet the farm on it as they say.....

Peter

Good point - you do need all of the original donor car details

The Red car is now on eBay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/barn-find-/112025485409 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/barn-find-/112025485409)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/O2UAAOSwmtJXXWsJ/$_58.JPG)

Looks like an interesting challenge.....

Peter

Think i may have to have a cheeky little punt on this beauty (?  ??? )....as it`s not far from me either...(about an hour)......sit nicely with the Hi-Fi project.... ;D
Unless someone can go see it for me..?
Is there a logbook do we know..?
What history do we know about these `kits`..?
Cheers.....

You have to wonder why the original deal didn't go through ....

Given how many on Ebay do not complete it is not that surprising I would have thought especially looking at the state of it. I would guess a lot is to do with realising 'what have I done?' comes into it.

Peter

It's half an hour from me, i've requested to go and see it on Saturday, awaiting reply.

Going on Sunday.

Peter , what time are you going to see the car..? Have thought might drop along too , have a gander.....about an hour or so on the bike for me....

Hi

It is Nigel who said he was going, maybe try Messaging or emailing him?

Peter

Saveable..? 100%...the worst rot is an edge on the rear frame, really minimal...the rest is truly just a good wire-brush or at worst get it shot blasted.....then hammerite, job done.......spary wax-oyl in the tricky areas as the body-off option would be a mission in my mind.....all the wheels roll easily, the rubber hoses would need replacing as some have cracks and are weeping....a couple of areas on the glass fibre floors have started to perish but should be easily repaired .... the interior is very 80`s kit car, the seats are quite nice Recaro types...Re-strip the carpets and re-make them.. lots of potential.....The guy did say there was a number plate to go with the car too........likely a Q though.....he didn`t say.....

pic

pic

pic

pic

pic

pic

pic

pic

Noooooooo....got outbid by £10...!!.....:( :(

The way of the world sometimes, keep in touch with the vendor and ideally get the buyers details as you never know, Ebay deals often fall apart.......

Peter

Great photos. Fascinating.

The 'engineering' that went into that is rather more basic than I'd have expected !

The best engineering is often not complicated in it`s structure...look at a Lotus...simple chassis, just as Colin Chapman wanted.....The centre structure of the Reflex is a box-type arrrangement so is naturally strong...
Yes, I`ll get the winners number and e-mail from the guy....actually , he was a bit upset that I hadn`t won it , as we got on very well, like-minded biker folk.....  ;D

Hi Beta-Blocker!
I was with you that Sunday.

Did you ever have any joy in finding out where this car went?

Only for interest.....

Regards

Nigel

Has this kit car been developed by mike spence?
I had a thema H200, same colour similar styling body kit with the fin type mouldings up to the wheel arches and the 5 spoke mag alloy wheels similar to the thema Ferrari 8/32 5 spokes. In fact I still have the spanner to take off the huge centre nut.
Looks like a great project

Hi to everyone in this thread. I would really like to try and purchase a reflex kit car (the earlier the better). Would anyone be able to help me contact an owner to see if i can tempt them to part ways with one for a very motivated buyer? Thank you in advance!

Hi All

Resurrecting this thread, anyone know of the whereabouts of any of the Reflex cars? It would have been interesting to see one at the 50th.

Peter

Hi Peter,
Looks like 'Beta-Blocker' didn't find the purchaser or doesn't
get follow-up notes.
It was a seriously interesting car, one I'd have loved to see
restored. I clearly wasn't feeling brave enough at the time.

Nigel

Hi Nigel

Interestingly the write ups for the company suggest 18 examples were made, with a mixture of Lancia and Ford engines. Would be good to find out how many of each were made and if any are still around.

Peter

Oddly despite an involvement for 30 years with the kit car industry this is one I don't remember much less recall seeing! The number of shows where you might come across them has dwindled to the point that in 2022 there was only the Stoneleigh show in May and the Newark Show in July I think. Visitor numbers at Stoneleigh have been declining (Covid) and Newark was run this year for the first time in 5 or 6 years.

Since the advent of the IVA tests the number of manufacturers has declined, probably due to cars not being buildable to the required standards. Luckily it's still possible to build Stratos replicas to IVA standards!

So, apart from the Stratos replicas (Transformer/Hawk Cars, Handmade Cars, Litton and CAE) which had Beta options (I don't think it was ever offered by Lister Bell) there have been a few manufacturers who recognised the potential of the Lampredi Twin Cam and chose the Beta as a suitable donor car. Deon was another who made a Ferrari Dino replica, I think Dax may have had a Beta option for the Kamala too but most went for a Ford engine on that?

I'll ask around and see what else pops up and keep an eye open for a Reflex at the shows next year!

I've just exchanged a few emails with Beta-Blocker.

It's fairly clear he doesn't know where the Reflex is, sadly.

N.

There was a Ferrari Dino Beta based replica/kit car at the Beta 50 event. I'm sure that it will appear somewhere amongst Tony's photos.

Hi Neil

I assume that was an early Deon kit which I had forgotten about. I saw one at the kit car show at Stonleigh years ago, but was a later one based on MR2

Peter

Hi

After a bit of sleuthing I managed to track down and had a good chat with Gareth Atkinson who designed and built the Reflex cars. Sadly, the end of the story with the Reflex was not a pleasant one, but from what he told me his career eventually moved on to Germany where he worked for most of the major manufacturers. He is now retired.

Via the forum, I also made contact, by pure fluke, with his son Michael who is/was interested in getting a Reflex as well.

Interestingly there are actually two versions of the car. The early car was Beta based with approx 10 cars made, the rest, maybe 11 were Ford engine based and these were re engineered to suit the Ford engine and cannot be used with the Beta engine and subframe.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I am no further forward in finding anyone who has one. If I learn any more I will post here.

Peter

No news to report from my contact in the kit car publications industry either but I will remind him when the new show season kicks off next year!

Thanks Guy

Hopefully we may get a break in the New Year, must be some still in the U.K.

Peter

Great that you got to talk to him - did he have any affection for it?

As to there being one left we know of the eBay one and the demo car in the road test was taxed as recently as 2015 so it's likely.

I have scans of the Reflex road tests from kit car magazine if anyone would like a copy.

Hi Stuart

Affection, not really as indirectly caused him major personal problems, so not an era he wanted to dwell on sadly.

Hopefully he will find some info and photos and has said he will forward on to me to allow copying and is happy for me to share them.

I will let you know if anything arrives.

Peter

Perhaps worth a write up for Viva Lancia once you have all the material Peter?

Hi Neil

Yes, worth considering if enough material.

Peter

Hi Peter,
I've had a kind response from Tom, aka GreenVti. He recalled where he
first photographed it, but
sadly the car moved during the 3 year gap, so i'm no
further forward on where I went.
I've also checked my google timeline for 2016. Doesn't seem to go back
that far! [it stores 3 and a bit years only]

Cheers
N.

Hi Nigel

Worth a try. I had emailed Tom as well, but no reply from him.

I did get this Twitter link from a poster on Facebook with the attached photo, presumably from the original Ebay listing?

https://twitter.com/projectcarsuk/status/743142360620601345

Peter

Hi Peter,
Yes, quite probably.
That smallholding is very likely where I saw it.

As an additional attempt, i'll contact the foam company which is where Tom
first saw it. 10 years is quite a memory-ask though!

Nigel

Hello to everyone here! It has been very interesting to read this thread, I am very interested in locating a Reflex car in attempt to hopefully purchase one and bring life back to one. I can see that someone owned the red one back in 2012 located near Kent. Then it was later sold on eBay in 2016 but we don’t know who the buyer was. Does anyone know who it was that sold it on eBay in 2016? Or can help me get into contact with the owner that had it in 2012 as I can see a couple of you viewed it in 2012 in person which is awesome. If anyone could help point me in the right direction or help put me in contact with these previous owners then that would be amazing! Any help would be very appreciated and it will be a fun mission to locate one as these cars are special to me!

Thank you for reading. Aaron.